Marion and Tecumseh skillet info.

[Steve_Stephens]

Trying to find out more about Marion and Tecumseh skillets and other cookware.  There is a town of Marion in most mid-western states and there is a Marion county on at least one state--I don't remember which.  Where was Marion made?

There is a Tecumseh, MI.  Again, where was Tecumseh made and what are the names of the companies.  Could use any information as I want to add to the manufacturer's list.

Both Marion and Tecumseh pans appear with ERIE or other names as ghost markings so there was some tie in if even to use a Griswold pan for a pattern.  The quality of Marion and Tecumseh, from what I have seen, was comparible or a bit better than the average Wapak.
Steve

[John_Myers]

  Steve,
Did you find out anything about Marion Skillets. I have not seen one around here since about the time I first met you and I was blinded by the word Griswold. I think we have only seen two of them around here. I can not remember much about them except that they had an outside heat ring and were not bad castings. The reason I asked is when looking for info on Lodge found out that Lodge is in Marion County and that there were quite a few foundrys in that area in late 1800's. Not trying to say that they were made by Lodge or that they came from that part of country. But has anyone compared them. Just a thought. john

[Steve_Stephens]

John,
No info yet on these two companies.  I have a No.8 nickel plated Marion on the way to me.  It looks like the early, series 2 ERIE skillets and is all polished on the outside.

I looked in an Atlas and found that there was a Marion (town) in Iowa, Ill, Mich, Ohio, and several other midwestern states.  Something will thrn up I hope.
Steve

[Bob Logan]

There is a Marion #9 skillet on ebay right now.  I don't know anything about it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=976&item=753035434

Bob

[Jerry Cermack]

Steve,
I have heard that Marion was made in Marion, Indiana but I dont know for sure.....I've seen several of them around Indiana tho

[C. Perry Rapier]

In the blue book of Griswold and Wagner, page 281. The introduction talks about how the Sidney Hollow Ware Company had a plant in Marion, Indiana for the manufacture of stoves. Maybe they made a line of skillets there as well. From the way Dave Smith tells the story this would have had to of been before Sidney Hollow Ware was bought out  by Wagner in 1897. This is just a thought. How old do those Marion skillets that are talking about appear to be?

[Steve_Stephens]

Not much new on the Marion skillets but I have determined that they were probably made using old ERIE skillets as a pattern.  Just got two Marions; one a No.8 nickel plated that has an ERIE ghost mark and possibly an anchor casting mark.  It is the same as the second series ERIE skillets (John Madole's first series).    I don't have the same identical pattern ERIE to compare it with but...

The other Marion skillet is an earlier one, No.9 that appears to be identical to two ERIE No.9 skillets in my collection.  These are the first series (John Madole's "new" series) with "scooped" handle.  The "9" on the bottom of the Marion is identical to those on the ERIE pans and all other features of the three pans are identical.  No ERIE ghost mark on the Marion.  

Putting the Marion 9 top to top with the ERIE 9 shows that the Marion is close to 1/8" smaller in diameter which is the shrinkage factor of iron per foot of casting.  So it is pretty certain that the Marion skillet was not made from an old ERIE pattern but from an old ERIE skillet being used to make a mold.  That is why there is the shrinkage to the pan.  If it had been made in an ERIE pattern there would be no difference in the Marion and ERIE skillet diameters.

The quality of the Marions is quite good and comparible to the ERIE skillets but not as good as some ERIE pans.  My No.8 nickeled Marion skillet has a superb casting and finishing that is every bit as good as almost any ERIE skillet you will find.

One thing I have never understood is how one can take a skillet, for instance, and use it to cast another pan.  A pattern is required to make the mold that the pan is cast in and a skillet is not a pattern.  Just how a mold was made from a skillet rather than a pattern is a mystery to me unless  the skillet was fashioned into or part of a new pattern.
Steve

[C. Perry Rapier]

Maybe I can help explain some of this. I am certainly not an expert but I have worked with molds, molten steel, pouring of molten steel in molds etc. However, the work that I performed was on the railroad. I live in a small town and there is a foundry where they make molds and pour molten steel. I have a friend that works there. He took one of my griswold lambs and cast a mold from the lamb. What they do is pack sand or mold material around the item to be cast. A mold is then made from that item. The sand or mold material stays together and the original piece is removed leaving the cast. The metal is then poured into this mold. From my lamb he made a new lamb out of brass. He also made one of steel, again using my original lamb as a mold pattern, for another friend of mine. I am just offering this as an example of what can be done using an original as a pattern to make a mold.

[Steve_Stephens]

Hi Perry,
I think I follow what you say.  Interesting to see your copied lambs.
What happens to confuse things is incorrect use of terms.  The PATTERN is what the casting or molding sand is packed around in order to made a MOLD.  
The molten metal is poured into the mold which is only used one time and then broken away from the CAST PIECE.

If one is going to copy a skillet, and has a regular skillet to work from, I still don't see CLEARLY exactly how that is done.  It the molding sand is packed around the skillet then the skillet is encased inside a lump of sand.  You have to get the skillet out of the sand.

I suspect that the pan would be placed upside down on a flat surface and sand packed around the bottom of the skillet including the handle.  Then the flat surface (molding board?) would be flipped over along with the skillet and sand packed around it.  Then the molding board is remove and, next, the skillet is removed.

But that is only part of the MOLD that will be needed to cast the piece.  You can't just pour the molten metal inside the sand or you will have a solid, 55 pound skillet.  It needs to be hollow or have a "bowl" to hold the food.

So, you take the original skillet, place it firmly over a pile of molding sand to make an impression or cast of the INSIDE of the skillet which has to also include the top half of the handle.   All molding sand around the outside of the skillet has to be scraped away at the parting line or the top edge of the skillet.

Then this part of the mold has to be "assembled" with the first part of the mold (of the bottom of the skillet) in such a way that the molding sand will not fall apart, the inside impression of the skillet won't fit down into the bottom portion mold so as to leave no room for the metal but will be spaced apart to give a proper (and pretty exact) wall thickness to the finished pan.

Still needed are GATES for the metal to flow into the MOLD and VENTS for air and gases to escape from the mold as the molten metal flows in.

That's the process I envision and I don't see it too clearly.

Take a look at an original Griswold PATTERN for the No.0 skillet.  Photos are in the L-W GRISWOLD book, first volume, on p.69 and the back cover.  I have seen this pattern in person and it is really a neat piece.  But the pattern is not a skillet nor was it made from a skillet.  A skillet is made from the MOLD created with the use of the PATTERN.  And the pattern is more than the one plate shown of the bottom part of the skillet.

So, I do know pretty well how a MOLD is made from a PATTERN.  But how is a MOLD made from a SKILLET?  Maybe the way I have outlined, above, from my imagination?  Someway you have to get a suitable MOLD into which to pour the molten metal.

A neighbor made an aluminum skillet using an iron skillet to copy from years ago in a shop class.   I have seen it before but he was unable to find it now.   Thought it might give me some ideas on how it was made.  His recollections are about the same as I surmised that these copies were made.
Steve

[C. Perry Rapier]

It sounds to me like you have got it. Your idea of how if they pack mold material around the skillet, then how do they get the skillet out? They make two molds 1/2 of the skillet for each mold. One for the inside and one for the outside. Then these molds are put together. Now think about it. The air between these two molds make up the shape of the skillet, where the molten metal will flow and fill up. After the molds are filled and cooled the mold is broken away, the excess metal is ground off and there it is. So you see the whole skillet is not encased but rather only half thereby easily allowing the pattern skillet to be taken away. I have been to casting factories where motor blocks for machinery are made. When making one piece several molds are actually used. However, in our skillet, only two are used.

[Troy_Hockensmith]

Did alot of research on TECUMSEH. Very tough one!!!! Between the great indian and his side kick IRON EYES. and the USS Tecumseh and the Tecumseh engine company with there iron cylinders theres alot of info to sort through. I did come up with some info on a Tecumseh Iron Co. located in Tecumseh of Johnson County Nebraska it's proprieter was a guy named P.W. Jones. They also had some dealings in Alabama for ore. I found one legal case listing filed for mineral rights in Alabama.  Nothing to substantiate that they actually made hollowware or that they had a foundry. I can prove there was a Tecumseh Iron Co.  located in Johnson Co. Nebraska.  

http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/ne/johnson/gaz1885.txt

I saw another link that mentioned it as a foundry.

http://www.rmmlf.org/SciTech/Sherwood/app_topic.htm
Look under accounts. Listed the year of the case as 1891

http://www.kancoll.org/books/andreas_ne/johnson/johnson-p5.html
H. RECKEWEY & BROS., proprietors of the Tecumseh Foundry and Machine Shop, natives of Cook County, Ill., came to Nebraska in 1878 and established the present business in 1879.

[Troy_Hockensmith]

http://www.casde.unl.edu/history/counties/johnson/tecumseh/tecumseh.htm


In addition to a trading center for the agricultural community, industries have included an iron foundry, a canning factory, a roller mill, and a poultry plant that employs up to 250 persons. Keim Construction, established in 1882, built one of the first highway projects from Tecumseh to Crab Orchard and continues state-wide.

[Steve_Stephens]

Hi Troy,
Well, you have covered Nebraska for Tecumseh but I would not think the Tecumseh skillets come from there.  More likely, I would think, from Michigan.  Other states with a Tecumseh are Kansas and Oklahoma.  I can see why you started with Tecumseh since research on Marion might be a bit harder.  I find a town of Marion in the following states;
AL, AR, CT, IL, IN, IA, KS, KY, MD, MA, MI, MS, MO, NY, NC, OH, OR, PA, SC, SD, TN, TX, VA, WV, WI.

Of those states I would think the best chance for the Marion iron cookware to come from the following:
IL, IN, MA, MI, NY, OH, PA

The Marion and, I think (don't have one) the Tecumseh skillets seem to be copies of earlier ERIE skillets with some having ghost marks.  That would seem to put their manufacture around the mid 1880's at the earliest to c.1900 at the later period though they could be a little later.  I would expect them to have been made in one of the eastern or eastern part of the midwest in the industrialized states.  Now, where could that be?  Was Marion actually made in a town called Marion?  Or in a Marion County?

Was Tecumseh named after a city or a name of a person?  There just isn't much to go on at present.  But I know you can find the answers Troy if you have the time to put into the research.  

I emailed one company last year where a Google search turned up an iron company or foundry in one Marion city but they said they had not made any cookware.  Since then it has been a dead end with nowhere to really start.
Steve

[Troy_Hockensmith]

I did a pretty extensive search and Nebraska was the only one that came up as having an Iron works and foundry. I agree it would be an assumption to link them.  Maybe someday!

[Steve_Stephens]

Here is some information that places Marion in Marion, INDIANA and some info on Tecumseh, also.  Both are from ebay sellers familiar with Marion and/or Tecumseh.
************************************************Hi Sue,
I have a question for you.  Living in Marion, land of the big steam shovel, have you ever seen iron skillets marked MARION that are copies of early ERIE skillets?  I am trying to find out where these pans were made (yes, I am guessing they are from your city) and anything else about the company, when they were in production, what they made, etc.    

There are also skillets (and other pieces) marked TECUMSEH (Tecumseh, Mich.?) for which information is non-existant.  Can you help any, especially on the Marion iron cookware?  Do you know anyone who might or a source like a historical society in Marion?
Regards,
Steve Stephens
******************
Hi Steve,
The skillets marked Marion are from Marion, Indiana.  They were later bought out by Wagner Ware.

I don't know anything about Tecumseh.  Sorry.

You were right, Marion, Ohio was at one time home of the steam
shovel.  Marion Power Shovel closed several years ago.
Sue
**********
**********
(Steve),
I will share what I know which isn't much.  Most of this comes from talking with people so not sure how accurate it is.  I have one tecumseh error pan. a # 10 missing the H.  I have been told they were from michigan so tecumseh, mi. sounds right.  The pan was bought originally  from a hardware store in the Orrville Ohio  area.  This was in an estate and a lot of the stuff was from the late 1800's early 1900's.  There was 2 sidney hollow ware pieces with that skillet. So am guessing the pieces are from that era but thats a guess could have been later.   I have a 12, 11, 10, and an 8 marion all are the same upper middle curved logo and handles are the same.  Haven't seen anything smaller than an 8 or any other iron pieces except skilets. They did nickel plate some as I have a nickel plated 8.  Some of the people I have talked with do indicate that marion was the name of the town but they thought it was marion indiana not marion ohio.  I grew up within an hour of marion ohio and would have thought I would have seen more of these if they were produced in ohio.  The old timers also think that the company that made the skillets were bought out by wagner at some time or they thought there was a connection with wagner.  I pick up both skillets when  can find them but the tecumseh is the hardest to find in my area,  followed by marion and then, the favorite.  I look for cast iron piece extensively at auctions and flea markets in The Canton, Ohio area and I have only seen one tecumseh pan in the last 3 years, perhaps half a dozen marions and a couple dozen of the favorites.  Hope that helps

Steve Stephens wrote:
Hi Mike,

I am looking for any info on Marion and Tecumseh.  Same question you had last year for me.
I ansered you but don't remember what I said.  Anyway, I have recently picked up a nickel plated Marion No.8 skillet with ERIE ghost mark, and two THE FAVORITE skillets; one is a 9 that has not come in yet and today a No.12 nickel plated one arrived.  It is polished all over including the bottom.  Now in my lye bucket I think it will come out great.  I measured it and it is 12-7/8" in diameter which is almost 1/2" less than a comparable ERIE No.12 skillet so it wasn't cast from an Erie 12.   I have posted for info on the Marion and Tecumseh with not much luck but think the former may be from Marion, OH and the latter from Tecumseh, MI.  

What, if anything have you found out about these makes?

Sooner or later some information will come to light on these makes but, in the meantime, I'll keep looking for nice examples.  I passed a No.9 Tecumseh that had a slight bow to the bottom.

Are you collecting these pans Mike?  Do you have enough to see variations amoung them?

Steve

From: MIKE
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:25:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Stephens

...I am looking for any info on marion, tecumseh and "the favorite "skillets.    I am familar with the favorite piqua logos but have run across several pans that are just marked "the Favorite" an early version of the piqua pans or a completely different company?  Pans look more like an erie than they do the favorite piqua pans but have no idea on these.  Appreciate the time.  It was nice talking with you.
*************************************************
Also see two other threads about Tecumseh and Marion on this forum:
http://www.griswoldandwagner.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=manufacturers;action=display;num=1044287082

http://www.griswoldandwagner.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=irongeneral;action=display;num=1047506358

Steve

[Steve_Stephens]

Two people in emails on my post right above state that they believe that Wagner bought Marion or that there was some tie in with Wagner.

Looking back on the above posts I see where Perry on Reply#5 also mentioed about a possible tie with Wagner.  If Sidney Hollow Ware operated a foundry in Marion, IN, possibly Wagner also acquired that foundry along with Sidney Hollow Ware.

My Marion 8 nickeled skillet shows a clear ERIE ghost mark with a  faint anchor pattern mark.  I don't have that identical version ERIE skillet for comparisons between the Marion and it.  However, I do have a very early (earlier than any shown in the books) Wagner 8 nickel plated skillet that I matched exactly in size and proportions to the Marion.  I have no idea what was going on among the different foundries where the Marion, Wagner, and possibly the Erie all appear to be the same exactly in size and proportion including the handles and pouring lips.  Even the "8" on the bottom is in the same location and has the same slant.  The number on the Wagner appears to have been worked over a little to engrave it deeper.
Steve