Dangers of SS and Electrolysis?

[itsme]

I'm thinking of starting an electrolysis tank and doing more research than what is available at WAGS ran across this great site. It had a few warnings about using stainless steel and about electrolysis in general. Don't want to be an alarmist or anything but, I did a search and didn't see these things mentioned here on WAGS site. Link at bottom.

Warning I have been made aware of the potential health problems with the use of stainless steel for the positive electrode. The stainless breaks down and releases chromium into the liquid electrolyte and a gas can be released (in the form of the compound hexavalent chromium) in the mist directly above the bath. Studies have shown that repeated and long term exposure to the liquid increase the risk of skin problems and repeated, long term inhalation of fumes increase the risk of lung cancer. For the most part, the users of this process are not exposed to levels that should cause immmediate concern. The studies have been performed on those who do this as a daily job over a long period. It is probably best not to use stainless material but if it is used, wear protective gloves when working in the liquid and adequate vetilation and/or breathing protection should be used.

» Electrodes to connect to the positive battery terminal. Iron, steel, or any metal can be used. Aluminum used as the positive electrode deteriorates quickly. Iron (and maybe brass) would last longer but requires regular cleaning. The electrode can be wire, bolts, fasteners, screening, sheet metal or thick plate._** NEW INFO ** Stainless steel WAS previously recommended because the material I was using seemed to last longer and cleaned easier. BUT, as the electrode breaks down,the chromium in stainless steel becomes a compound (hexavalent chromium) which ends up in the liquid and there is the potential for the mist from the bath to become airborn and inhaled. LONG TERM exposure to the skin has been related to skin disorders and LONG TERM inhalation of fumes has been linked to lung cancer. In addition, the chromium in the electrolyte could be considered environmentally harmful so dumping in the ground would not be a responsible thing to do. Instead, allow the liquid to evapourate and dispose of the remaining debris as you would a hazardous waste._Due to these problems, I can no longer recommend stainless steel to be used at all, especially in this very public forum.

Amount of bubbling depends on various factors described herein. Bubbles may eventually become a thick froth on top. NOTE: The froth is a Hydrogen-Oxygen gas mix and will burn if ignited.

http://users.eastlink.ca/~pspencer/nsaeta/electrolysis.html

[Roger Barfield]

http://www.fboerger.com/Articles/StainlessOpinion.pdf

[Ray Emerson]

Thanks for posting all of the information.  I always want to be as safe as possible.  With the info in the latter site, it sounds like electrolysis as we do it is a very safe process.  I have large overhead doors that open when my system is working, and I don't breath the mist/vapor over the tank.  Texas wind takes care of dispersing any that might accumulate.

Ray

[itsme]

Thanks. So Roger nice link. I'm starting to accumulate CI at a rapid rate. Therefore I need methods to clean quicker/better. I'm even more confused. He does say that there is a danger in breathing the stuff Cr(VI) although very little is given off in water solution.

Seems to me that the guy is ultimately saying, he wasn't in production working with the stuff, he was in management working off in a air conditioned well ventilated office and seems to be saying if you work around the stuff you're a wimp if you're worried about your own health. He talks a lot about the shop, how does that translate to my home?

I've seen other posts on WAGS talking about what seems to be a type of boiling or something. Should you stand and breathe the stuff coming off the tank? Should I smoke a cigar or cigarette over the tank (I don't smoke)? He is not talking about flammability of the gas coming off the tank anywhere that I can see, which is one of the hazards mentioned in the my link.

Chuck Rogers posted pictures that look like pumpkin puree and he says the foam forms a column when running, he has been running 24/7 for the last 3 months. I assume these things are running somewhere in people's houses, basement, attached garage. I have concerns, SS is expensive, I have 2 children and a few pets (maybe I should add the children into the pet category because the pets act better than they do), is long term exposure to Cr dangerous to them?

Other things your link mentions are keeping constant temp. When solution is frothing and rising up in a column, is it keeping a constant temp? He says Cr is toxic but not to worry most of it is Cr(III) which is less toxic. To me, still toxic. He has had the soup tested, no Cr(VI) but then he says sludge contains 5% Cr(VI) of original 18%; is the balance released as gas? It's got to go somewhere.

I don't understand his EPA section at all. Where does his figure of 111.11 pounds of SS come from? What the heck are CERCLA, RCRA and SARA Title III and what do they mean to me if I'm doing this at home?

He talks about arsenic in drinking water. My water company monitors that and there are known amounts that can be consumed safely. How much Cr can I breathe?

I could keep going but you get the general idea by now. Thanks again, Winston

[Tom Neitzel]

Hydrogen and Oxygen are produced through the electrolysis process (some folks might remember that from high school chemistry class).  So there will be a small amount of hydrogen coming off the top of the tank.  You probably should not lean over it with a match or cigarette, but as long as there is some ventilation in the area you are using the rig in you ought to be fine (right, Sam?).   I keep mine outside in a shed but it doesn't freeze solid here in the winter.

As far as the chromium discussion, do a search on hexavalent or chromium.  You will find it discussed in several threads that don't need to be repeated here.  The conclusion by most is that it is not an issue at the temperatures and conditions we operate (it tends to be a problem in nuclear installations and very high temperature and pressure steam operations.).

The bottom line though is that you do not need to use stainless steel to be successful with electrolysis.  Some folks use crushed tin cans, others old PC cases.  They just disintegrate faster and have to be replaced.

You don't even have to use electrolysis.  I like to use a self-cleaning oven, vented outside, to do the initial cleaning (you can search on that too.  I worked up a cost and it is cheaper to use).  It also works well with aluminum.

Just read about the cleaning methods and use the process you are most comfortable with.

Tom

[Ray Emerson]

I wouldn't put an electrolysis unit or anything like this in my home.

Ray

[Sam Roberts]

Hydrogen and Oxygen are produced through the electrolysis process (some folks might remember that from high school chemistry class).  So there will be a small amount of hydrogen coming off the top of the tank.  You probably should not lean over it with a match or cigarette, but as long as there is some ventilation in the area you are using the rig in you ought to be fine (right, Sam?).   I keep mine outside in a shed but it doesn't freeze solid here in the winter.

Tom

Yes, just make sure you disconnect the negative cable before you start unhooking your pans. Even a little spark will clean out that foam in less than a second. No damage was done. No pants change required.... :o

[Ray Emerson]

Thought I'd copy and post this from the previously posted link site:

Some people mentioned their concern about using Lye, a.k.a. Caustic Soda, chemically named Sodium Hydroxide because it is, well, caustic. As far as my choice of using Sodium Hydroxide as an electrolyte, if used properly, I am confident that there is no concern. At the rate of one tablespoon per gallon, it (lye or Sodium Hydroxide) is less than .1 Molar, yet I find that a small amount will help to emulsify fats, oils, and grease, and increase the efficiency of the reaction while held at or slightly above ambient temperature.

So, in conclusion, if you have any reservations about using stainless steel electrodes in your electrolysis tank, then don’t. Common steel or cast iron will work fine, but will require very frequent cleaning to maintain good current flow. Also, if you have any concerns about how to handle the electrolyte (which if filtered from time to time through cheese cloth to extract the junk and leaves and pieces of gasket and sheets of peeling paint, can be used forever) (sounds like a good idea for Chuck's tank  ;)) then set it to the side to evaporate and put the powder residue that is left in a can for a future hazardous waste clean up day.

Does the statement about adding a tablespoon of lye to the mixture mean that adding this to the water and Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda you will get better cleaning of your cast iron?  That's what it sounds like to me.  Do any of you all do that?

I also liked the part about cleaning the barrel out with cheese cloth to remove all, or most, of the gunk!

Ray

[Ray Emerson]

Even a little spark will clean out that foam in less than a second. No damage was done.

Spoken from experience apparently; what happened, Sam, fire, explosion, or what?  I want to know what to watch out for when I mess up!

Ray

[Ray Emerson]

Seems to me that the guy is ultimately saying, he wasn't in production working with the stuff, he was in management working off in a air conditioned well ventilated office and seems to be saying if you work around the stuff you're a wimp if you're worried about your own health. He talks a lot about the shop, how does that translate to my home?

I disagree with this statement, Winston.  It appears to me that the author knows exactly what he's talking about, and he's not talking down to anyone.  I think I learned from his knowledge and really appreciate a link to his site being posted.  I believe he is saying, [size=18]"Yes, there is some danger, but it is minor, as with many other chemicals many use daily, so by using care, you can use eletrolysis safely."[/size]  Simple as that, but you don't want to set the unit up in your home, and you don't want to stick your head right above the solution and breath deeply or light up just to see what happens.

Also, I woudn't allow young children around just for safety's sake.  I would wear glasses or safety goggles again as insurance and for safety, but that's just the way I would handle it, plus I'd also wear gloves.  That may be overkill but I'm safety minded all the time or try to be.  I don't want to let what should be a minor problem be life changing if I can prevent it.

Ray

P.S.

Are you a member or visitor?  If you are a visitor, you need to join.  I've enjoyed your posts and have benefitted from them.  As you already know, this site and group have many positives from vast cast iron knowledge to camaraderie.  Please join if you haven't already!!

[Roger Barfield]

Harold, I know of one member who uses lye (sodium hydroxide) in his tank instead of sodium carbonate.  I believe that is a quote from him above.  I've used sodium carbonate for years and had good results, so no reason for me to change.  

[Ray Emerson]

Thanks, Roger!

Ray

[Sam Roberts]

Even a little spark will clean out that foam in less than a second. No damage was done.

Spoken from experience apparently; what happened, Sam, fire, explosion, or what?  I want to know what to watch out for when I mess up!

Ray

Just a very minor explosion, just enough to make you jump.

[fatfutures]

I'm with Roger. Adding sodium carbonate gets my pieces clean. And you can't get cleaner than clean... can you?

Also, more is not necessarily better when adding the Washing Soda. I use a stainless steel hydrotherapy tub that holds, I'm guessing here, roughly 65-75 gallons. When I first set up this tank, I added approx 2 cups of washing soda. I only add more after topping off 3 or 4 times and only add approx 1/2 cup. My tap pH runs 7.5 or so but, I've never tested the pH in my tank. Chuck posted a pic of his tank all foamed up, mine does the same.

I, very rarely, use a large grill brush to wipe down the insides of my tank. I do this more because I THINK I need, rather than a performance issue making me think it is necessary.

My tank is outside, under a covered area. I don't worry about fumes or gasses. I still get misc debris, leaves and bugs, in the tank but, I don't worry about those either. LOL I always turn off my charger when removing a piece and I do wear gloves. Gloves are due to a skin condition, more than concerns about touching the solution.

Anyway, I've used my set up for a few years now and have never had any problems with explosions (Sam, I think I would have had to change my ummmm... drawers!), heck I've never even shocked myself (I've heard of that happening once or twice to members  :o )

The ONLY problem I have ever had with my set-up and something I would caution all members to watch for... A while back, I had placed a piece in my tank and cranked her up... noticed that I was pulling VERY low amps. Didn't think much of it at the time... the piece was extra grungy and I assumed it was due to poor contact to the cast iron. Figured that after a quick run, I'd remove some grunge and be able to get a better connection. Didn't happen... ran the piece through twice and when I removed it from the tank, I noticed a grayish, build-up of "gunk" near the point of connection. When I scrubbed off the gunk, I realized that some of the cast iron had been eaten away. Creating pitting where none had existed before  :-[

The problem: I would take the clamp from the piece being cleaning and hook it onto my charger handle. Apparently, this killed the springs tension. Loose springed equaled poor connection to the piece being cleaned.

Anyway, the hubster replaced the clamp (with a better, heavy duty model) and the problem was solved.

*Note: I believe (maybe? It's possible?) that there might be an article on this in the next newsletter.

[mississippi_slim]

winston i have made mine pop 2 times by removing the clamp with it running..sounds about like a 38 pistol ..the second time was to scare my son..so its no big deal unless you was looking down in the barrel at the time..both times i was pulling about 40 amps with a big head of foam..so no it wont blow a wall out of your house..jimmy

[itsme]

Great discussion so far. This was my aim to get a discussion going about safety issues that's why the question mark is in the subject line. I'd like to hear even more. So here I go again.
 
Five percent of sludge is Cr, bad for someone like me perhaps when there are skin problems involved. I would have to handle and dispose of it, sounds like a pain. I realize that it would probably be years and years before I'd have to clean out the tank, but how long would it take 30 gallons to evaporate to dispose of the sludge?

I have not seen on this site anything about safety, in my haste I may have overlooked it. Stuff I've seen on here is - here's my tank anyone can do this. For Tom, some may [size=14]remember[/size] that electrolysis produces hydrogen and oxygen, I'm not one of them, had chemistry in high school (at least 33 years ago) and a basic class in college (30 years ago). Now that I know this I can understand why the tank might ignite. But wouldn't it be better if this were posted along with other safety issues in with the posts showing off various members tanks and cleaning instructions? I thought the sight I found was wonderful, addressing safety issues, the guy has experimented with a lot of stuff, he is restoring CI tractors and engines. He readily admits that he is not a chemist.

I have no choice if I put in a tank but to have it in basement, attached garage, possibly back porch but still attached to house and off my kitchen. I add children and pets into discussion for the fact that they aren't know for working in an electrolysis plant. Also children's development may be affected where an adult would be fine.

Harold not a member yet, waiting for application approval. And sorry I go back to my statements about the link posted by Roger. As nobody has mentioned running temperature of their tank or monitoring the running temperature of their tank! Do they heat up? I know nothing about electrolysis tanks, just trying to educate myself before I put one in. Just because people say they are safe doesn't make it so.

I have yet to hear where the other 13% of the Cr is going, into the air? According to Roger's link, Cr is a know health hazard if inhaled, again what temperatures are the tanks running at?

The guys figures and organizations are all fine but what does it mean if doing this at home without all the monitoring done in a plant? He seemed to pull the numbers used out of his butt, where does the 111.11 pounds of SS come from? The 1 pound of Cr seems to be per plant, but I don't know. The 1000 pounds of Cr is that per plant also? He seems to be saying you need to compare your pollution to what others are polluting, is that right? One pound of Cr, how many people can be poisoned with that, I surely don't know? If he had explained it better in that section and showed us some math, I could be fine with what he is saying. I used to be pretty good a word problems, but this one is not within my realm because he doesn't give us enough.

Harold you agree there is some danger, what monitoring is done, like this plant? Was the stuff on top of Chuck's tank just foam, it looked like the whole thing was semi-solid? I grew up in a paper mill town in northern NH, small mill compared to most of the others in the area. I will always remember reading Weekly Reader in school and our little mill was the 2nd largest polluter of the Connecticut River, the mill wasn't even on the Connecticut River it was on the Ammonoosuc River, I was so proud.

The few grams of Cr I might produce are they going to make anyone sick, or worse die? We used to think all kinds of stuff was OK to dump and was safe. No one knows now what we will find about Cr in the future.

It sounds like Cr is a minor hazard according to best current science, and can be disposed of and handled without needing a HAZMAT suit/team/hauler/lead lined barrels/Yucca Mountain.

Here is a link to Cr toxicity.

http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Pollution/chromiumtoxicity.htm

I post with one last comment (for now anyway); doing a Google search electrolysis chromium vi stainless steel, produced a number of patent searches for reducing Cr and methods for reducing Cr but only one site that said not to worry about Cr, guess which one that was or do the search yourself. ;)

[Greg Stahl]

Winston,

WAGS is not here to make decisions for you.  You are obviously a father and had to make decisions about having kids, so it is time for you make decisions about using an electrolysis system.  Whether you want to believe person A or B, the ultimate decision is yours to make, as you are a grownup and that is what grownups do.

Many on this site have read, research, etc. and then decided whether to switch from lye/sodium hydroxide use in cleaning to electrolysis.  Then if you switch to electrolysis you have to decide what is in YOUR best interest in that set up.  YOU make the decision, we don't make them for you.  You have to read and make your own decisions, WAGS and the folks using this site will not make them for you.

Yes, cleaning iron/ cast iron is DANGEROUS, no matter what you use.  It is especially dangerous to those that don't take safety precautions.  I suggest that you read and read and read and then come to your own informed conclusions.  That is what all of us have done and not all of us use electrolysis or lye or self cleaning ovens.  We made our own decisions based on what we believed was in our OWN best interests and safety.

[C. Perry Rapier]

Winston,

WAGS is not here to make decisions for you.  You are obviously a father and had to make decisions about having kids, so it is time for you make decisions about using an electrolysis system.  Whether you want to believe person A or B, the ultimate decision is yours to make, as you are a grownup and that is what grownups do.

Many on this site have read, research, etc. and then decided whether to switch from lye/sodium hydroxide use in cleaning to electrolysis.  Then if you switch to electrolysis you have to decide what is in YOUR best interest in that set up.  YOU make the decision, we don't make them for you.  You have to read and make your own decisions, WAGS and the folks using this site will not make them for you.

Yes, cleaning iron/ cast iron is DANGEROUS, no matter what you use.  It is especially dangerous to those that don't take safety precautions.  I suggest that you read and read and read and then come to your own informed conclusions.  That is what all of us have done and not all of us use electrolysis or lye or self cleaning ovens.  We made our own decisions based on what we believed was in our OWN best interests and safety.

I think we need to use this response, right here, for the next person who comes up with this inquiry. Long story short, here is what we do, YOU, do what you want to do. But don't preach to us. We have heard that sermon time and time again, and I for one have heard it enough, too many times actually.