Welding or Brazing cast iron

[Paul Beer]

I have one of my old favorite #16 camp ovens that has a crack from part of the bottom  to up the side aways...it does not seem to leak even when hot...but we have been only using it for biscuits so haven't given it a lot of heat...Anybody got some suggestions as to what can be done to patch the crack and keep using the oven....the 16's are hard and expensive to come by and would sure like to save if we can...

[Steve_Stephens]

You should be able to find qualified welders from an antique stove shop.  Try a google search.  Special welding rods need to be used as well as heating the pot before welding.
Steve

[tjzebra]

hi paul,
There was a company down the street from where I used to work that welded cast iron only, such as engine heads and blocks. Ive seen thier work and with out acid etching you would have never known it was ever fixed . I will be up in seattle today and will stop by and ask what exactly they were doing to get the quality that they had. also if you could tell me where you live Im sure these guys will know of another shop that does the same work, and what kind of costs are involved.
mike

[Paul Beer]

Hi Mike, thanks very much...I live in Phoenix,Az and would appreciate any info you can dig up...Paul

[Paul Beer]

Steve thanks for the tip I will get on the search...I know it can be done because I have seen some good repairs...but I have seen some real bad ones and have been told of disasterous results with loss of the oven..I know the heat has to be a problem but  at least have seen the car blocks done and some of them ain't very pretty but work....I'm not as concerned about looks as I am about function and keeping the oven in operation...Paul

[tjzebra]

hi paul,
Idint have the time yesterday to get over to thier shop, but the best reference tool I can suggest , is for you to get ahold of your local office of the AWS (american welding society) these guys are tops when it comes to info on shops that they would recomend, folks who have a AWS cert are the best in the business. they are who I would ask first before just picking someone out of the phone book.
good luck in your search ,
mike

[Paul Beer]

Mike, thanks for your help..will let you know how I make out...saw your note on the Ohio auction deal...that sure is the risks you take on those kinda deals...let us know how you make out...Paul

[Steve_Stephens]

Just remember that because a person or shop has a AWS cert. does not mean that they know everything about welding or welding on thin cast iron.  Not to say the shop you contact won't but be careful.  Welding cast iron is not like welding other materials and the welding rod used is different.  I mentioned antique stove dealers because the good ones often have parts copied and old ones welded up.  Those stove plated are also thin and probably made of the same type or iron as our old pans.  But you are dealing with a relatively new pot so maybe the iron is different.  Just ask the shop if they have had experience and how they will weld your pot and exactly what the surface will look like after they finish.  You only get the first time to do it really right.  Have you priced a new Lodge #16 camp do?  Or checked on ebay for one?  Another thing to be aware of:  If proper welding of the do requires it to be preheated in an oven I would think that the oven temp would be higher than what it takes to remove the temper from the wire bail handle so you will end up with a soft, bendable bail.
Steve

[tjzebra]

yes steve there are all sorts of different certs in welding that aws tests for , but trust me when I say that if a person is aws certed to weld cast iron, he knows a dang sight more about the subject than you or I. and " NO " when ever you preheat cast your not going to be getting it up past 600f , Iam going to give paul the aws link. and by going through a metallurgist ( like me ) I think he will be getting the best info avalible on the subject. I also hold a non-destrutive testing cert for underwater as well as surface.

But if you disagree with the aws for not knowing what they are doing or for some reason think they would stear someone in the wrong direction. maybe you could start your own society.

the steven stephens welding society.  and in doing so you could test people and give out federal certs. and educate all of us stupid welders out there that think you only use one type of rod to weld everything.


http://www.aws.org/

[Steve_Stephens]

Sorry Michael if I offended you and your knowledge.  You must know more about iron than I do.  I was just putting forth some points that I would watch for.  

I'm not a metalurgist nor really up on metals but a handyman.  I have seen plumbers who should be experts at what they do, really mess up things or do shoddy work.  Whether that would happen to an AWS cert. welder I don't know.  Gee, we're only talking about an old cracked dutch oven here, not a submarine hull.  I think I made too big a deal of things.  Take it from here as I don't want my own welding society.  And thanks for your input.  I didn't mean to put you or your knowledge down.
Steve

[tjzebra]

Hi steve,
to be quite honest Im sorry for going over board with that last post, there are times that I read way more into something than act exists. I was taking it as a complete attack on the aws, and all it stands for , instead of just helpful warnings and things to look out for. Ive known for quite some time now that I have a complete lack of people skills when I believe some one is attacking the groups I belong to or the family.

[Steve_Stephens]

My people skills are sometimes lacking, too.  I have always done most things for myself since that way it gets done right.  But I have seen others who do better work than I do at some things.  I've seen welders who do incredible work (Merlin titanium bicycle frames for instance) that I could never do.  Anyway, I am often cautious of other's skills without seeing what they can do.  Heard too many horror stories on how peoples things were really messed up by so called experts.

Just last night I picked up my latest copy of The Antique Stove Exchange (Antique Stove Club publication) and saw that there is the first part of 2 about gas welding of cast iron.  The article goes into great detail and was written by a guy from Canadian Antique Stoves in Kaslo, BC Canada.

He does say he took a beginner course in welding so is he totally qualified and at the top of his "profession" or just a competant welder of iron?   I don't know but this is his daily business so he must know pretty much what he is doing.  Don't know if his methods concur with those of AWS cert members or not.
He welds with cast iron rods and preheats to sub-red temp. which sounds a lot hotter than 1000 degrees.

Anyone wanting to use his services can contact Mike Strong at:
PO Box 673, Kaslo, BC, Canada, VOG 1MO
250-3553-9648
www.canadian-antique-stoves.com
He charges $25 per hour and used propane preheating.  Has 20 years experience/satisfaction guaranteed.

Steve

[StevenG]

Question?

If lets say you are taking a Dutch oven in to be welded
what would you want them to do?

Grind a vee into the crack and fill one side at a time?

Just weld the inside?

Just weld the outside?

Just weld inside and outside with no grinding?

Just curious

Steve G

[Steve_Stephens]

Area being repaired must be CLEAN!!.  You can sandblast to grey iron or grind back from the repaired area.  Grind a "V" from one or both sides (preferable).  It is better if the V goes all the way through and there can be a 1/16 to 1/8" gap at the V.

I didn't know all this yesterday and will go no further as I am not going to be doing any welding.  I would think that you would want the inside of the pot ground after welding.  Depends on how nice the job looks that the welder does.  I'd love to see some cast iron welding done.  Maybe at WAGS first convention?  Fat chance!
Steve

[Paul Beer]

Steve, thanks for the note...what I'm dealing with is a hairline crack and am leary about grinding out the crack and weaking the iron in that area any more ....but will give it a look....I'm doing some more research and will let you know...In any event am going to give a try at some point so may have a show and tell at the first and last annual WAGS convention....I'll keep you informed.Paul

[Steve_Stephens]

Paul,
If only a tight hairline crack why not go ahead and use the d.o.?  I have some very early pans with cracks that have probably been there for a century and are still strong appearing and up to the task of cooking in.  Don't know if the newer iron is as strong as the old stuff though.
Steve

[Paul Beer]

Steve, this oven is probably  40 to 50 years old...it has no markings...I bought it used 30 years ago and we have been cooking with it since...however, our ovens get some hard use in the transporting dept..and was wanting to keep this from cracking any further...also I think there might be a little leakage...kinda of a gentle seep...so we have just been using it for baking...So figure it is time to find out what can be done...I propose to just weld it on the outside and thus would not need any grinding....the camp ovens don't need a perfecly smooth outside bottom like the inside dutch ovens so will get a report on the operation and hopefully not a post mortem...Paul.....ps...sure glad you and Mike made up :)

[Steve_Stephens]

Make sure you grind a deep v-groove.   The article I was reading says you are wasting your time if you don't clean the area extremely well or don't v-groove the piece.  Grinding a v-groove on  only one side as opposed to both sides can allow more stress to build up but, for a curved piece like your d.o. that may not be significant.
Steve

[Paul Beer]

Well, after serious research and  contemplation I have decided to repair the oven with braizing, got my cowboy welder over and we had a consult with my nephew the proffesional welder by phone and all agreed on the process. As Steve said we will grove it and drill a small hole at the end of the crack on the bottom to stop it from walking any further...clean well and finish off with Acetone and then carefully braize....I'm going to attemmpt to send some pictures of the crack before we do the repair...and will follow up with the after pics..The brazing will work here because this is a camp oven and the ridge on the bottom is not a problem because of the feet...and not being collector quality a brass repair will be just fine...
Still getting some papers etc on the welding process but so far all reports are it can be done but requires very careful work in heating up the iron before starting the welding and then cooling down..Will forward all later as it comes in...
 Use this link to go to Cast Iron Repair and see the before pictures  http://groups.msn.com/CastIronRepair

[Bob Logan]

I had a Western Importing waffle iron that I bought on Ebay that arrived with the top ball cracked off one paddle.>:((Yes I did get my money back and got to keep the waffle iron):) Well, it had been sitting around for awhile and I decided to get it fixed. I probably went to 12 welding shops here in Denver and nobody would touch it. They all said you needed special equipment to weld cast iron and that they did not have it.

I find it funny that it's so hard to find someone to do this. In my past 3 years of collecting cast iron I've come across my fair share of repaired items. Some where very bad but for the most part most are excellent repairs. I've had a couple of skillets that after coming out of the lye tank I'm suprised to see that the handle had completely broken off and at some point had been welded or brazed (not sure the difference in looking). These were repairs that were so good you couldn't see them until you stripped the pan.

My question is......Were people more industrious and capable back then than they are now? I can close my eyes and picture a wife dropping her skillet and breaking the handle off then sending her husband out to the barn to do the repairs. Wow. Now days just throw it away. Back then no problem.

Bob