What about Chrome?

[Rob Di Stasio]

Can it be seasoned. I just got a Krusty Korn Kob Junior with a chrome finish. It's in the lye bath overnight to clean the nooks and crannies, but once it's cleaned can it be seasoned? I have ny doubts as there seem to be no "pores" as in raw cast iron.

What say ye?


Thanks, Rob

[Steve_Stephens]

but once it's cleaned can it be seasoned? I have my doubts as there seem to be no "pores" as in raw cast iron.

What say ye?


Thanks, Rob

Well, Rob,
I'm not sure but that as-cast iron also has no pores.  Could it take grinding the surface to open up any pores and, even then, are there really pores as some say; are the pores so small to be of no significance; or are there no pores?   I think I have heard several different versions.  We need a metals expert here who knows what he is talking about along with someone who understande the seasoning process and effect it has on iron cookware in use.

Chrome plated iron it would seem would be devoid of any pores.  Your pan has an as-cast surface but the result of chroming should be the same on machined or ground surfaces.  Seems to me that "seasoning" sits on top of the iron's surface.  Perhaps it also gets a "bite" into the iron from pores?  Just some thoughts as I really don't know.  I do know that seasoned chromed iron is not as pretty as unseasoned.

Steve

[moosejaw]

I'm no expert on chrome, but I have a Griswold that is nickel plated on the outside.  The inside of the pan is unplated cast iron.  I only season the cast iron part, and leave the nickel plating unseasoned.  I have never had a problem with rusting.  I don't think I would season a pan that is chrome plated.  I would coat the inside with shortening before I baked in it, and then wash it out.  I don't think you will have a problem with rusting if it is plated.  

[Rob Di Stasio]

Come to think of it, I forgot that it could be nickel instead of chrome. It's definately not as shiny as a car bumper!

Well, I'll be baking in it this weekend and also using it's twin in plain cast iron. It'll be interesting to see how they compare.

Thanks for the help.

Rob

[Steve_Stephens]

Rob,
Wagner used little if any chrome but nickeled their pieces.  In any case the nickel or chrome should act the same way unless the cooking surface is unplated as were most of Griswold's nickeled pans and pots.

By the way, does anyone have a new, unused or nearly unused nickeled Griswold pan, pot, etc?  I am trying to find out if the insides were originally nickeled all over or just down from the top about half an inch.  Roy Meadows, a large collector (but he is neither big nor fat) of nickel and chrome Griswold pieces says that the nickeled pieces were originally plated even on the cooking surface and showed me one piece with a tiny amount of what could have been plating.  My observations, though, are that all Griswold nickeled pieces were left unplated on the insides.
 
How to tell if Nickel or Chrome?  
ERIE and slant TM's are always nickel.
Block TM's are usually chrome but the earlier ones are nickel like block TM heat ring skillets and the very first smooth bottoms.  Some later pieces such as the 90 double skillet are usually nickel but were made in chrome.  Hammered ware could be either.  Silverlike is nickel and chrome was called what it was.
Nickel probably always left unplated on insides while chrome pieces were almost always plated all over (small TM regular skillets are an exception that I have seen).

Steve

[moosejaw]

Steve,

You are in luck.  I have a Griswold #6, and I believe it is nickel, not chrome.  The only place it looks like it could be chrome, is about 2 inches at the end of the handle.  It is very shiny.  The rest of the pan is silver, but dull.  Block TM, Erie PA., USA   Pattern 699E.

You are correct about the plating.....the outside is plated all over, but the inside is plated down about a half inch on the inside, then the rest is cast iron.  The cast iron is incredibly smooth, like glass.  Smoother than any of my other Gris skilllets.  I will send some pics to your regular email.

[Steve_Stephens]

I got the photos from Marty.  Can't tell for certain is nickel or chrome but looks more nickel to me.  There is a color difference between the two and that is the best way to tell one from the other.
Steve

[Edd_Roberts]

Steve, according to the blue book, there were three chrome finishes: Chrome which was highly polished, Silverlike which was a chromium finish left matte, and DuChro which was highly polished  on the handles and on the outer border of lids but matte everywhere else.  The few chrome pieces I have had are probably DuChro with the inside of the skillets and top of the handle highly polished.

 All the nickle plated I've seen has been completely unplated inside and all the chrome I've seen has lost all its plating except for a border near the top on the inside.  The only pristine chrome I've seen has been in photos.

 Of course, I haven't seen nearly as many pieces as you or any of the other long time collectors have, but going by what Smith and Wofford have in their page on Griswold finishes, it would be safe to assume that any plated Griswold pieces with a matte finish outside and traces of plating anywhere inside are probably one of the chrome finishes rather than nickel.

 I'm very partial to black iron myself, though the plated stuff is attractive and the porcelain is classy looking . For me, though, as long as it's cast iron, it's interesting.

[Rob Di Stasio]

Assuming my Wagner Krusty Korn Junior is plated with either nickle or chrome, does this mean I cannot use the electrolysis method of cleaning for fear it will remove the plating?


Thanks, Rob

[Edd_Roberts]

Rob,  I just finished cleaning two junior sized Wagner KKK pans.  One has the Junior on the second stick from the top,  the corncob K lettering on the  fourth stick from the top (though it's mostly worn away) and the  patent date on the  fifth stick from the top in large lettering with  the stylized '2' in 1920.  Most of the sticks are blank and I don't know how much of this is due to wear.

The other  has the K's on the second stick, the junior on the third, the wwsydney-0- on the fourth, 1319 on the fifth, patent date on the sixth, and B on the seventh.

 Are there many varieties of this pan in the junior size that you know of?  The book gives what to me is a ridiculously low value to these pans which are very high quality, IMO.

[Steve_Stephens]

Steve, according to the blue book, there were three chrome finishes: Chrome which was highly polished, Silverlike which was a chromium finish left matte, and DuChro which was highly polished  on the handles and on the outer border of lids but matte everywhere else.  

Ed,
Blue and Red books= excellent books.  But, as good as they are they are not always right and there are some mistakes or questionable information with no documentation on how the info was determined.

Quoting from Griswold's Bulletin E-11 (c.1932)
"Silverlike Cast Iron Cooking Utensils.  These utensils are nickeled over inside and out making a clean, attractive 'Silverlike' finish.  They are not polished"

I just noticed that it says "nickeled inside and out" which contradicts what I said about all nickeled pans being black iron on the inside (which MOST are).  I have a block TM smooth bottom No.4 skillet which is not polished on the outside like most nickeled pieces were and indications that it may have been nickeled on the inside all over.  The plating is worn but goes down more on the inside of the pan than on the older, polished pans.  I think this may have been the beginning of the "silverlike" term and made when Chrome started to came into use with Griswold.  Possibly the Silverlike term was later used to indicate a certain Chromium finish but no indication of this appears in any Griswold literature I have seen.

From Griswold catalog of 1940:  The cover of the catalog says: "Extra Finish Black--Silverlike--Chrome".   If Silverlike had been one of the chrome finishes then it seems odd that it would appear separately from the word "Chrome" on the cover.   Inside the catalog many pieces are offered in "Satin Chrome" and "Du-Chro".  The Satin Chrom  appears to be highly polished on the outside,  as-cast on the bottoms, and satin on the inside with the grinding marks on the cooking surface visible.   I have a near mint, probably unused No.8 wood handled skillet like that.  Other chromed pieces I have seen have the whole of the cooking surface in a mirror polish chrome finish.  These may be of earlier or later manufacture.  Griswold did change the details of its finishes over the years.
Also shown are "Du-Chro" finished skillets with covers in sizes 2-10 only.  This is "Dull Chrome" derived from a special process by Griswold.  It is better finished--better looking--will not easily tarnis--ready to instant use--cooks foods perfectly.  "DU-CHRO" UTENSILS cost a little more than the regular extra finished ware (black iron) and a little less then the Chrome finished ware.
These pieces are not polished on the outsides but might have some polished highlights on the rims; can't tell for sure from the photo.
And then there are several pages of "Silverlike" where neither the words "Chrome" or "Nickel" are mentioned.  Included are the three cake molds.  Anyone ever seen a chrome plated Santa, lamb or rabbit?  All plated ones I have seen are nickeled determined from the warmer "color" than chrome has.  I would say then that Silverlike is still nickel in this catalog and, probably, in all Griswold useage.


From the Griswold 1940-42 catalog the three chrome finishes as Griswold called them were as follows.  These were available only on the table service pieces plus the oval skillets.  Nickeled finishes are not offered in this catalog nor are any chrome finishes on regular cookware items presumably because of the war:

"Chrome finish" dull chrome, unpolished, some pieces with satin rims, some with polished rims, dull interior, unpolished outside and bottom.
"Satin finish" resembles frosted silver or fine pewter.  A satin finish with bottoms unpolished.
"Full Polish Chrome" All surfaces and parts highly polished except bottoms and undersides of covers.

Note that the previous catalog's "Du-Chro" finish is no longer offered of has had its name changed.
"These finishes are obtained by different polishing operations and they do not indicate a difference in quality but merely a choice of decoration"
One could say that the Satin Finish might be the Silverlike or nickel but it is specifically stated that it is chrome.

Regarding chromed pieces with black cooking surfaces.  I think the only pieces I have seen are the early small tm skillets.  Had one and have seen a few on ebay.  Otherwise all chrome pieces I have seen had originally been plated on the cooking surface.

Steve

[Rob Di Stasio]

Edd,
Both mine are like your second one, only the chrome has a "C" and the cast iron an "A" on the last stick.

I agree they're very nice pieces but there are probably one of Wagners most popular pieces so that's why they aren't highly valued cashwise.

I do have a Tea size and they are much higher valued.

Steve, in your second post you wrote,

"Wagner used little if any chrome but nickeled their pieces.  In any case the nickel of chrome should act the same way unless the cooking surface is unplated as were Griswold's nickeled pans and pots. "

I'm confused here. If the cooking surface is nickeled, isn't it plated, nickle plated?

Rob


In the

Rob

[Steve_Stephens]

Steve, in your second post you wrote,

"Wagner used little if any chrome but nickeled their pieces.  In any case the nickel of chrome should act the same way unless the cooking surface is unplated as were Griswold's nickeled pans and pots. "

I'm confused here. If the cooking surface is nickeled, isn't it plated, nickle plated?

Rob

Rob,
I see where I was not clear and have modified my post.  Yes, if the cooking surface is nickeled it is plated.  I was referring to those Griswold plated pieces where the cooking surface is left unplated such as skillets, pots and bowls.  Rabbits, Sants, etc. did have plating on the cooking surface as did all cornstick pans whether Wagner or Griswold.  I guess it's hard to remember all the variations that one has seen and explain them to others.  I am still learning and relearning or remembering facts.  No where near to knowing it all.

Steve

[Steve_Stephens]

 Are there many varieties of this pan (Wagner KKK pan) in the junior size that you know of?  The book gives what to me is a ridiculously low value to these pans which are very high quality, IMO.

Edd,
Wagner KKK cornstick pan variations (from observation and memory but not necessarily complete)

Made in black iron, nickel plated, and aluminum in all three sizes (Tea Size, Junior, Senior)

Only the Senior size (I don't think they are marked Senior, though) are made with a "Patent Pending" version that also has different handles without a hanging hole and of a different shape.  These earlies versions do not have the KKK made up of corncobs but just regular letters KKK.

On at least the Junior size version the KKK comes in different styles or details.  The KKK appears on different ears, I think, and I know that the patent date also appears on different ears.  The earlier writing is hand done and a lot deeper and wider than later pans with the latest ones having maching made writing that is smaller and less deeply incised.  Look for the hand written pans with deep writing.  I think the tea size may have some of these same variations.

KKK pans are pretty common pans so don't bring much money but nice ones are very nice pans that will complement any collection.  Casting quality and surface will vary noticeable so if you look for a better casting with the deeper hand writing you will have a nicer looking and older pan.  The senior size is impressive and the tea size one is nice, too.

Any single letters on the pans is likely a casting letter with no collector significance similiar to the pattern letters after the pattern number on Griswold pieces.

Steve

[C. Perry Rapier]

Only the Senior size (I don't think they are marked Senior, though) are made with a "Patent Pending" version that also has different handles without a hanging hole and of a different shape.  These earlies versions do not have the KKK made up of corncobs but just regular letters KKK

Steve, I have this pan. It is not marked senior just as you say, has KKK not in ears of corn but letters KKK, but it does have hanging holes, one in each end.

[Steve_Stephens]

Go here:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/srchnum.htm

Type  D55734  in the search box and click search.  A fairly blank window will come up.  Click on the "Images" box and you will see what the original KKK senior handles look like.   This is the design patent of the KKK pans.

I can't remember if I have seen one marked with Wagner or KKK or whatever but I have seen some unmarked pans (quite a number of them) that came out of a school kitchen after years of use.  They had those handles.

More info from Wagner's 1924 catalog:
Shown are the Senior (it's called that in the catalog but the pans are probably not so marked) and the Junior.  No Tea Sized at this time.  The catalog illustration has the old handles.
Steve

[Edd_Roberts]

Steve, thanks for the info on finishes.  On the one Junior KKK I mentioned which is missing nearly everything but the patent date, the lettering is indeed larger than on the later pan and is deeply imprinted.  It also appears to be hand lettering compared to the typeset-like lettering on the later pan.

 I'm probably going to keep the one with the missing lettering for my own kitchen use.  The other junior is hanging on the pegboard in my flea market setup tagged $30.  It was eyed appreciatively by several browsing customers today who have probably never seen the Smith/Wofford book with its low, low bargain basement prices for this creampuff of a cornstick pan. One day, I expect someone to grab the little gem and prove the experts wrong by shelling out 30 clams without dickering...... ahaha

 

[Steve_Stephens]

 On the one Junior KKK I mentioned which is missing nearly everything but the patent date, the lettering is indeed larger than on the later pan and is deeply imprinted.  

Edd,
I don't understand what is mostly missing.  You say the patent date is there and the writing is large and deep.  Do you mean that the patent date is the only writing remaining?  I don't know if I have seen a KKK pan that way.  Could it be a copy by someone other than Wagner but done in the old days?  I've had a lot of KKK pans over the years but always sold all but for a few that were nice and different and, now, all that is left is the one Junior pan that I have at my folks hanging on their wall.  The writing on that pan is in slightly different locations than is usual.
Steve

[Edd_Roberts]

Yes, the patent date is there , probably because it's more deeply imprinted that the rest of the lettering was.  What's missing is almost all the cob shaped lettering for KKK,  with only part of the first k remaining and part of the last B with the 'S remaining.  The last  two letters of Junior are still faintly there and there's nothing else on the backs of any of the  sticks.  The bottoms of the sticks are all slightly flattened from wear as though the pan was used many, many times in a commercial oven with a flat surface rather than a wire rack like you have in a household oven.

 Not being an expert I can only say that I doubt it being a copy, because all the casting is slightly finer than the later pan which has all its lettering and both pans are very smooth and well cast.  All the no-name copies of both Griswold and Wagner corn stick pans that I've seen  are rougher on the outside than the name brands. There isn't any roughness at all anywhere on either, not even in the hang holes  and both were encrusted with seasoning grease inside the baking areas, needing 8 hours of electrobath to clean them.  If one is a copy, I would guess that both are.

 One day soon, I'm going to have to go buy a digital camera to save myself all this typing.  ;-)

[Rob Di Stasio]

My question probably got lost in all this good info, so I'll ask again.

If I try to clean a nickle plated pan in an electrolysis bath will the plating come off? After all, that's how they put it on originally.


Thanks, Rob