What voltage works best for electrolysis?

[Fusion_power]

I've tried my electrolysis setup on 6 volt and on 12 volt.  I have an 80 amp setting that seems to give best results.  Has anyone tried a 24 volt charger?  They make these for tractor trailer rigs with 24 volt systems.  They are not easy to find and usually have to be custom ordered.

[Thomas_Callaway]

Darrel,

We had a long discusion on this a while back here: http://www.griswoldandwagner.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1112572828/0

and here: http://www.griswoldandwagner.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1102981099

Here's an article Ed A found that's really technical: http://nautarch.tamu.edu/class/anth605/File10a.htm#ELECTROLYTIC%20REDUCTION

The basic answer to your question is:

The AMPS do the work. If you can increase the VOLTS (pressure) you will increase the amps running through the electrolyte. The other variables are the distance between the anode and cathode and the PH of the electolyte. A close distance and higher concentration of sodium carbonate will reduce the amount of voltlage needed to pull X number of amps.

I had to reduce my concentration of sodium carbonate in my setup because anything larger than a #10 skillet was pegging out the 40A - 12V BC. Now a piece that size only pulls about 20A. I can put in more pieces at once and it cleans them all faster than just a single piece. Since I have that variable voltage power supply I can hang a small piece in there and crank up the volts to push more amps through the solution. It's only rated 10A but it's faster on a #4 skillet than the 12V BC which only pushes 1 or two amps. Confused yet? Ask away and I'll try to explain it another way.

TC

[Fusion_power]

I've done some serious delving on the internet as well as some experimentation in my electro bath over the past week.

1. An optimum electrolyte can be made with one mounded tablespoon of lye to 5 gallons of water.  The best results are obtained between ph 8.5 and 9.0.  You don't have to be super accurate, just adjust the ph a bit based on how much current flows through a single pan suspended in the solution.

2. A common ph tester used to check soil acidity is surprisingly accurage and effective if you want to get it just right.  Cost @ $30.00

3. Under some conditions, a wax like substance builds up in heavy rust which impedes electrolytic cleaning.  I put 1 level teaspoon of dawn dishwashing detergent in 30 gallons of water which seems to have reduced this problem significantly.  This results in slight foaming but otherwise has no negative effects.

4. Use mild steel wire (plain electric fence wire is fine) to connect the charger to the cathode plate and to the anode (the pan being cleaned).  Don't use copper wire anywhere in this setup as it tends to be slightly soluble in alkaline electrolytes.  Don't use galvanized wire, its worse than copper.

5. Slower is better.  The faster you try to run the electrolysis, the more problems will be produced.  A slow bath (low current) allows a smooth and even surface color to develop.  Low current is defined here as about 2 amps passing through a #10 skillet.  A #3 skillet would only need about 1 amp.

6. Regularly scrub the object being cleaned with a stainless scrubber.  This removes rust and carbon deposits which contributes to an even surface color.  Return the item to the to the bath and run it another few hours to finish cleaning.


The one problem I haven't figured out is how to most easily remove the black dust residue (ferrous iron) from the surface.  Scrubbing works especially using a drill with a pad, but there should be an easier way.  Anybody have any bright ideas?

[C. Perry Rapier]

Darrel, I was reading going yep, uh-huh, yep, uh-huh, and then right there at the end, man, I was thinking you had a good answer to that, had me going there for awhile, we sure have talked about that a lot. When I get done with the electro I just put the piece in a big rubber tup full of soapy "Dawn" water and use a SS  (scratcher), I can't ever think of the name of those things, and when I get all the black off it, I rinse it off and take it inside and use SOS pad on it to get it down finer than a frog hair. Then I either put mineral oil on it or season it, all depending what I want to do with it.

[gt]

1. An optimum electrolyte can be made with one mounded tablespoon of lye to 5 gallons of water.  The best results are obtained between ph 8.5 and 9.0.
  

Darrel,

I'm interested in using Lye instead of washing soda.  Could you reference where you got the 1 mounded tablespoon of lye to 5 gallons of water?

Gary

[Fusion_power]

Gary,

I got it by experimentation.  I put 30 gallons of water into a plastic drum and kept adding lye and stirring until the current flow stabilized.  Then I got out my soil ph tester and checked the reading.  It was pointing dead on 9.0 which is about what I expected.

There are a couple of points to keep in mind about using lye.  The water is just alkaline enough that you don't want to stick your bare hands in it.  Always fill the container with water first, then stir in the lye a little at a time.  The lye seems to have a reaction with some components in heavy rust that causes the "waxy" gunk to build up blocking the electrolytic reaction.  The dawn seemed to fix that.

What I don't know yet is if the lye is going to maintain a steady alkaline reading.  If it changes as I put pans in and clean them, then I should add more lye to maintain the optimum solution.  So far, I've cleaned a dozen or so pans and it looks like the solution is just a bit slower at removing rust than it was when I first started.  I haven't cleaned the metal plate that I am using as a cathode and its pretty crudded up now so that will be the first thing I do tomorrow to see if there is a difference.  I have a clamp on ammeter so I can read accurately down to the milliamp.

[C. Perry Rapier]

Darrel, anode, cathode, I just call them good piece of metal and bad piece of metal, but anyway, I thought the bad piece of metal was the anode. And again anyway, I can tell you before you check, that your bad piece (sacrificial) piece, since it is all polluted, gunked, clogged, or whatever you want to call it, it is slowing down significantly the electrolysis process. The more gunked up the bad piece is the worse it gets.

I think your experiment is interesting. I don't know that the lye is a better reactor than the PH plus, but we have had the discussion before. Also, that sticky waxy buildup that you talk about, I have noticed this a lot with the PH plus process, so I don't know if it has anything to do with the lye, I only mention it.

In a shallow setup, with the lye, if proven to work better, would be alright and work fine, but in a deeper setup, like with the SS barrels, it might be a little inconvenient to fish them out with a wire or whatever, but then again, you do have them hanging there, you'd just have to have rubber gloves on all the time.

Well Darrel Edison, keep at it and let us know how you come out. What I am waiting on is a byproduct of this process, surely there's something out there, turn cast iron to gold or something like that, or to heat your house with or run your car on, or at least lawn mower or something.

[Thomas_Callaway]

Gary,

What I don't know yet is if the lye is going to maintain a steady alkaline reading.

Won't the lye react with the grease (if any is present) on the piece? If so, will the PH change, thus diluting the electrolyte? I can't tell a whit of difference between using PH+ or washing soda. I'd though of using lye, but got to thinking it would "wear out" which the PH+ and/or washing soda does not.

Based on your info I think I might make a small setup using lye for those gunky pieces. I find using a lye bath on those pieces and then using the electric soup produces a better result. Why not combine the process?

I agree with your assessment that lower current produces a more even finish. I have seen such results when I have used the variable voltage power supply on a small item. However, speed is sometimes of the essence so I'll use the battery charger on larger pieces.

TC

[gt]

OK Darrel thanks,  I can't find it now but I've read somewhere that lye is better than washing soda.  I may try lye when I get my SS barrel from Perry.

[Roger Barfield]

 Based on your info I think I might make a small setup using lye for those gunky pieces. I find using a lye bath on those pieces and then using the electric soup produces a better result. Why not combine the process?

T.C. I have a lye tank I use to hold pieces until I have time to electro clean.  It works great.  I use PH+ in my electro set up and have had the same solution in there for a year now.  I just add water from time to time to replace what evaporates.  I don't see why you would put lye in the electro cleaner because it does seem to diminish effects over time and sometimes you may need to reach in side to get something.  I suspend pieces and move them away from the piece of SS until the amp meter reads about 20 on my 12 volt battery charger and it cleans great.  My charger is set on 40amp and it takes 2- 4 hours to clean most pieces.  All this seems like trying to reinvent the wheel.  I haven't had any wax stuff build up so I don't know what is going on there.  The pieces come out with a grey that comes off with soapy water and a stainless chore boy.  I then use a stainless brush on my drill if needed.  Heat treat to even the color if needed and season coat with mineral oil.

[Thomas_Callaway]

Roger Sez:

All this seems like trying to reinvent the wheel.  

Agreed. And I have several prototypes to choose from around behind the shed.

I just like foolin' around with stuff that's all.

TC

[Roger Barfield]

Roger Sez:

All this seems like trying to reinvent the wheel.  

Agreed. And I have several prototypes to choose from around behind the shed.

I just like foolin' around with stuff that's all.

TC

Well, no harm in that, I was just wondering why.  Beside you may be onto something. If only it would remove plating as well as rust and grease.

 Also, did you install the Tesla coils yet on the [size=14]Frankencookerator[/size]?

[Thomas_Callaway]

 Also, did you install the Tesla coils yet on the Frankencookerator?

Well axshually no. I've been meanin' to git to that. I also been meanin' to get them skillets in there this week too. I guess Perry has noticed the peasants are still hangin' 'round his place waitin' fer him to fire up a dozen of them barrels at onced.

What I did do today wuz; my better half had me doing' some jack leg carpentry work an' my combo square has done got so rusty I couldn't read it. I snatched it out of the T and put it in the soup. Using the Variable Voltage Power Supply to run about 8 amps through it. It ought to be shiney as stainless steel by the AM. The framin' square goes in tomorrow.

I got me a new slogan now too:
[size=14]ElectroFranken Cookerator[/size] - it's not just for cast iron anymore.

TC

[CharlesCowdrick]

 I suspend pieces and move them away from the piece of SS until the amp meter reads about 20 on my 12 volt battery charger and it cleans great.  My charger is set on 40amp and it takes 2- 4 hours to clean most pieces.

Huh, well this is interesting. I need to check what setting my charger is at. With my small (did I say tiny outfit), I guess my iron is just a couple of inches away from the stainless. Thanks for the info . . .

[Fusion_power]

So I came up with something that is NOT in the previous discussions.

What are you using for water?  Is it chlorinated?  Is it from a well or spring?  Guess what?  The chlorine breaks down even stainless steel over time and impedes the reaction process.  If you use well water, it can contain a significant amount of contaminants that cause problems.  The best water would be distilled.  Second best would be clean rainwater.

Now I get to set a drum outside to catch water during the next heavy rainfall.

[Roger Barfield]

What are you using for water?  Is it chlorinated?  Is it from a well or spring?  Guess what?  The chlorine breaks down even stainless steel over time and impedes the reaction process.

Well it must be awful slow if it does because I've had the same piece in tap water with the PH+ for over a year now and when I wash it off every now and then, It shows no signs of deterioration.  It still cleans just like it did when I started using it.

[moosejaw]

I've not had any problems with tap water either.  I have a small piece of stainless steel, and have not seen any noticeable deterioration.

[C. Perry Rapier]

So I came up with something that is NOT in the previous discussions.

What are you using for water?  Is it chlorinated?  Is it from a well or spring?  Guess what?  The chlorine breaks down even stainless steel over time and impedes the reaction process.  If you use well water, it can contain a significant amount of contaminants that cause problems.  The best water would be distilled.  Second best would be clean rainwater.

Now I get to set a drum outside to catch water during the next heavy rainfall.

Darrel, have you done experiments to bear out what you are saying? And if the answer is yes, which I am sure it is, but I want to ask anyway, then how about well water that has been through a water softener? Also, if rainwater is the best to use and there is a significant difference then I'll use rain water. How about just going to the creek a few feet away and using some of that water?

[Paul Hummel]

Heck if  the rain water is the best I suggest that all from the Northwest should get together and start to bottle some of our liquid sunshine and sell it as "electro cleaneringest stuff"     ;D

[C. Perry Rapier]

Heck if  the rain water is the best I suggest that all from the Northwest should get together and start to bottle some of our liquid sunshine and sell it as "electro cleaneringest stuff"     ;D

Paul, I thought you was losin in for a minute. I had to read your post three times before I finally got it. I never heard rain called liquid sunshine before, or if I have, I've forgot about it.

P.S. The reason your barrel cost so much was because I filled it with Ohio water because it is an Ohio barrel and it won't work with Oregon water, when you need me to ship you some more Ohio water let me know.