Author Topic: Copperplating Occurring in Electro  (Read 5352 times)

Offline Cheryl Watson

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Copperplating Occurring in Electro
« on: April 26, 2014, 02:39:17 PM »
Oh Boy... once again, it can only happen to me.... right???

I constructed various 'jumper' wires to conduct the  current to the cast iron in the electrolyte.  (-) charge carriers.

The copper in the wire is degrading,(on the submerged end).... and take a look at the wonderful copperplating that is occurring on the the connector clamps....

So, this means the negatively charged cast iron is at risk for becoming "copper plated"...
No signs of it on my iron...... but I'm not taking any chances!

So I am now on the HUNT... yet again..... for heavier gauge STRANDED Stainless Steel wire for use as jumper wires/cables.

In the picture below, note the shiny silver finish on the clip to the right, next to the now copperplated 'brothers"...........

Offline Cheryl Watson

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Re: Copperplating Occurring in Electro
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2014, 02:39:58 PM »
I knew there had to be a reason for my Stainless Steel Fetish!!  :D
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 02:40:13 PM by lillyc »

Offline Eric Lawson

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Re: Copperplating Occurring in Electro
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2014, 05:07:34 PM »
I was wondering about that and used unplated iron strap to make all of the submerged connections.

Offline Cheryl Watson

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Re: Copperplating Occurring in Electro
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2014, 05:52:34 PM »
Well I have now ordered 316 Stainless stranded, vinyl clad, marine use.  We'll see how is works for the jumpers.  Will report in when it arrrives and is put into use........

Offline Duke Gilleland

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Re: Copperplating Occurring in Electro
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2014, 09:31:21 PM »
Have used #10 solid copper insulated connected to iron with small iron c clamps. Has worked fine for years [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
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Offline Cheryl Watson

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Re: Copperplating Occurring in Electro
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2014, 09:44:52 PM »
Duke, mine were working fine until.... the stranded copper began to deteriorate, and apparently this was releasing copper into and onto the attached clamps......... I stopped using the solid copper, because I found that the stranded copper wire conducted better. 

I have read in the technical journals that copper should not be placed a sodium carbonate electrolyte,,,, I now see why.....

I will be experimenting with stranded SS wire.... and this time, even the connecting screws and nuts will be SS.

 

Offline Jeff Friend

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Re: Copperplating Occurring in Electro
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2014, 10:30:18 AM »
Cheryl,

From your original post, it is not clear to me what is happening.  Were you using copper conductors to connect the positive lead from the battery charger to the anode?  Take a look at the Casting Call article on rust.  Any metal that is part of the anode is going to be oxidized - the electrons are going to be pulled out and the metal may go into solution.  That may be why your copper wires have degraded.

Were the clamps that appear to be copper plated on the piece you were cleaning (the cathode)?  If you take some steel wool or a Scotch-brite pad, does the copper come right off and reveal the original plating?

Like Duke, I use copper to connect the charger to the piece I am cleaning.  The clamp and wiring is several years old and in perfect condition.  On the anode side, everything below the surface of the electrolyte solution is stainless steel. 

Keep in mind that stainless has a much higher resistance than copper, so you will need more of it to conduct the current without heating up.  The connection to the anode is also important.  It is difficult to get a good connection without using some robust clamps.  I use a long piece of 1/4-inch 316 stranded wire rope.  Both ends are attached to the anode with 316 wire rope clips.  You can get them a McMaster Carr.  The loop of wire rope comes out of the barrel and the charger is attached there.
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Offline Cheryl Watson

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Re: Copperplating Occurring in Electro
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2014, 11:01:48 AM »
Jeff, the jumper wires were used on the cathode (-) side of things, to conduct current to the piece being cleaned. so the insulated copper wire was submerged in the electrolyte.  The ends of the copper wire were stripped to attach a vinyl insulated terminal to attach to the clips, which were then attached to the piece of cast iron. (The small amount of exposed copper wire is where the degradation has occurred).  It is these clips that have turned 'copper'.  These jumper wires were part of the CATHODE.

The copper color that has transferred does NOT come off with scrubbing, which is why I sounded the alarm here.  I have used these jumpers for about 18-24 months without incident. 

On the anode side, I have all stainless.... plates which hang from 3/8" threaded stainless rods, with all stainless washers, nuts, bolts, etc.  The plate rods are connected externally with clamps and copper stranded wire (battery jumper cable).

The battery charger clamps are clamped directly to the Stainless steel rods. (MY cathode rod is 1/2" Stainless Steel).

Will add current pictures... have to tromp to the garage to snap a few current pics.......

 

 







« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 01:11:28 PM by lillyc »

Offline Jeff Friend

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Re: Copperplating Occurring in Electro
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2014, 11:35:23 AM »
I don't think it is possible to erode copper from the wiring and then to have it simultaneously deposited on the clamp to which it is attached, regardless whether it is on the anode or cathode.  It is hard to tell from the picture, but the machine screws you used to make the connection do not appear to be "plated" with copper.  They look a little rusty, but in OK condition.

I suspect that the clamps are not being electroplated, but rather, the bright finish (it could be nickel) is being stripped off and the copper from your wiring is also being eroded.  Take some fine sandpaper and remove the bright plating on a clamp that has not been used in the process, looking for a copper "strike" under the bright metal finish.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 11:36:04 AM by Jeff_Friend »
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Offline Mark Zizzi

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Re: Copperplating Occurring in Electro
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2014, 12:52:49 PM »
I used the same #8 stranded copper wire for both anode and cathode...not good?  :-?

Edit...Yeah, I figured that after I asked it, so I changed my question.  :D
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 01:11:05 PM by mark21221 »

Offline Cheryl Watson

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Re: Copperplating Occurring in Electro
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2014, 01:06:00 PM »
The 'other' ends are copper and are not in the solution.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 01:07:01 PM by lillyc »

Offline Mark Zizzi

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Re: Copperplating Occurring in Electro
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2014, 01:19:28 PM »
Cheryl, have you tried Jeff's suggestion yet? It could be you just lost the cheap shiny plating to reveal a copper clip underneath. I would take the corner of a file to that shiny one and see whats under there.

Offline Cheryl Watson

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Re: Copperplating Occurring in Electro
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2014, 03:17:27 PM »
Took the Dremel with grinding wheel to the silver mini clip....
No sign of any copper strike under the surface.... all silver colored metal...

Offline Cheryl Watson

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Re: Copperplating Occurring in Electro
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2014, 03:35:47 PM »
Now, while I'm playing with the Dremel, I also took that grinding wheel to the newly copper colored clamp, and guess what????

The new layer of copper came off to expose the silvery metal beneath.... sure appears copperplated to me. :)

Offline Mark Zizzi

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Re: Copperplating Occurring in Electro
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2014, 05:38:57 PM »
Yup, sure does. Well that about clears that up. ;)

Offline Jeff Friend

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Re: Copperplating Occurring in Electro
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2014, 11:41:32 AM »
In my opinion, it raises more questions.  You may want to get out your chemistry book.

Electroplating occurs when you place a part to be plated at the cathode in a solution that contains ions of the metal you are plating, and use an anode of the metal you are plating.  For plating copper on steel, the basic setup is a clean steel cathode (the part to be pated), copper sulfate in the solution to supply Cu++ ions, and a copper anode to provide additional Cu++ ions.  Turn on the power and the copper ions are reduced (they gain electrons) and plate onto the steel as metallic copper.  Over at the anode, the copper is being oxidized, so Cu++ ions are going into solution.

So, what is going on with Cheryl's clamps?  What is the source of copper ions that are plating on the clamp?  Is the wiring the source of copper ions?  In theory, these wires are part of the cathode, so the wiring is NOT going to be oxidized and is NOT going to dissolve.    Furthermore, because the wiring and clamp are both part of the cathode, the wiring cannot dissolve while the copper is plated onto the clamp.  The stainless steel anode shouldn't be a source of copper ions.  Finally, why wasn't the cast iron piece that was being cleaned plated with the copper? 

These observations initially led me to think that the plating on the clamp was being stripped off, revealing a copper strike under the nickel or whatever the finish is.  The Dremel test specimen does not convince that is not the case.  You could be seeing the steel that the clamp is made of.  But, stripping plated nickel off the clamp doesn't make sense if the clamp is only used at the cathode, unless the charger has a problem, which is a possibility. You've got to remember we use (abuse is probably a better word) these charges for a purpose they were not designed for.

Cheryl, here is a test to try.  Get a couple of large (big spike type) nails or other pieces of clean, unplated steel.  Wash them so there isn't any oil or other protective film on them.  Use your plated clamps to hook them up in your cleaning system.  Have one wire, clamp, and nail fully submerged.  Run it through the cleaning process for a while.  For the second experiment, have the other wire and clip completely out of the solution and only the bottom of the nail submerged.  Run your system for a while and look at the results.  You'll need to run each nail separately for these tests.

Another thing that might be an issue is you connection between the wire and the clamp.  It could be that the a poor connection is causing a problem of some sort.  I use a Pony clamp and solid 12-gauge wire that is cut out of a piece of Romex.  It will carry 30 amps without any problems.  I am convinced that 20 amps is enough current for the biggest piece of hollowware I might want to clean.  The wire is stripped and double looped around a No. 12 screw that is tightly attached to the clamp.  The other end in looped around a piece of 3/8-inch copper tubing and soldered in place.  The tube gives me a large piece of copper to clamp the negative clamp of the charger to.

One last thought.  I hang the cast iron from this wire, so you could eliminate the "hanging" wires you are using and just use the clamp and wire for the same function.  I can hang a No. 12 skillet by the handle of  lift tab or a No. 9 DO from the Pony clamp.  Never had any problems with this clamp and wire assembly in years of use.

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Offline Cheryl Watson

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Re: Copperplating Occurring in Electro
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2014, 12:38:55 PM »
Jeff, this occurred with fresh electrolyte in the tank.  I have already dumped and replaced it..... again....

I have used smaller pony clamps and c-clamps because my grip strength is poor when using the larger, heavier pony clamps (which I also have many of). 

Where the copper wire attached to each clip, the stranded wire was clearly corroded and started to dissolve.  I attribute this to the effect of sodium carbonate as much as anything.  The nail experiment... well most, if not all of the nails and spikes I have are galvanized coating. (which theoretically will be dissolved by exposure to sodium carbonate and/or sodium hydroxide). 

I have already disassembled all of the jumpers, and cut/removed the corroded copper ends in preparation for constucting new jumpers.

I also have plenty of 12 gauge wire (from Romex cable) as you described above.   I also received my stainless wire in record speed <yesterday> so as the rain pours from the sky today, I will be busy indoors stripping and connecting, and ..... fashioning several types of new jumpers.  The C clamps are going to get a session in the EVAPO to get them all spiffy too.

SS wire shown below...7X7 316SS 1/8"

Offline Cheryl Watson

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Re: Copperplating Occurring in Electro
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2014, 12:48:15 PM »
One other variable that I had not considered....
I keep a plastic coffee can of White Vinegar next to the electro, to dip the clamps in to help loosen and remove any of the sodium carbonate that sometimes builds up on the clamps.  I had dipped these clamps to clean them.(after use).  It is possible that there is a substantial amount of copper sulfate in this vinegar solution also.  (although transference would have occurred with out any current (ambient).)

Once I construct new connectors (including some fresh copper stranded), if it occurs again, I will be looking seriously at the battery charger,,,, although the last four pieces (last week) seemed to be working just fine, and derusted as usual.


Offline Jeff Friend

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Re: Copperplating Occurring in Electro
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2014, 11:21:25 AM »
The thing with other variables, like the vinegar dip, is that they make the problem more complicated, not less complicated.  With the new, coated stainless conductors, another variable has now been introduced.  There is no sulfate present in vinegar, so copper sulfate cannot form.

Let me try to distill the original problem down as much as possible.  I believe the primary challenge is determining why the copper wiring degraded.  That one observation is the key.  Why?  It is not consistent with my copper wire experience, Duke's experience, and what we'd expect from a chemistry standpoint.  Corrosion of copper should not happen at the cathode of an electrolytic cleaning rig. 

The vinegar dip creates an acidic environment around the strands of the wiring.  However, copper will not corrode in an acidic environment, as long as it is also reducing.  (Google “Pourbaix diagram for copper” if you are really interested in corrosion.)  I think the problem may start when the clamp is removed from the vinegar dip and oxygen diffuses into the strands.  An acidic, oxidizing environment will corrode copper, especially thin strands with lots of surface area that can be attacked.  Maybe that is the explanation for the degradation of the wiring.

The secondary issue is the plating on the clamp.  If there is copper in the electrolyte solution, we'd expect it to plate out on the cathode, so that isn’t really a question.  So, where did the copper come from?  The wiring seems like the most likely suspect, but could the wiring leach out enough copper to plate the clamps?  Hard to say.

My advice is to skip the rinse in vinegar.  If you really feel the need for a rinse, use tap water.
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Offline Cheryl Watson

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Re: Copperplating Occurring in Electro
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2014, 11:49:19 AM »
I have dissassembled all my jumpers, and removed all of the 'stranded' copper wiring.  The exposed ends of the copper stranded showed fairly extensive corrosion.
The Vinegar rinse/dip was infrequent, and done only when Sodium Carbonate residue appeared. 

I have thoroughly cleaned all invividual clamps and connectors.  The C clamps got a soak in evaporust.  Copper battery clamps received the BKF/Wright's copper cream treatment to remove corrosion.

For now, I have switched to solid copper wire, which should not degrade as quickly as stranded.

I will also experiment with the newly acquired SS stranded wire... it will be a challenge with the stainless... kinda like wrestling an alligator.  Difficult to cut, (I will be using the EMT blade on the Hackzall), and I will leave a small length of vinyl jacket on the raw end (to keep is compressed). 

Another interesting venture........ ::)