Electro questions 3 & 4: anode containment, and hydrogen gas in basement

[Lewis Downey]

Hello,

I have decided to go with a heavy stainless steel beer keg for my first electro. I purchased one with a damaged top from a local brewery for $50 and a local mechanic is going to cut the top off for $30. It costs more than I wanted to spend but didn't take too much time to find and modify. The piece is currently in queue with the mechanic; I hope to have it back next week.

The keg opening is about 14" across and will fit all of the pieces I currently own and most of the pieces I expect to have in the future. Before deciding on the keg, I bought a 55-gallon barrel for $15 and planned to line the inside with a sheet of stainless steel. I am holding onto the barrel to cover the possibility that I will need a larger setup in the future.

The electro will be operated in our basement, where space is at a premium. Today's question is whether to put the keg in a container to hold fluid in the event of a leak or splash.

I am considering these options
• put the keg in the 55-gallon drum (encloses the keg entirely)
• put the keg in a 17-gallon tub (holds more volume than the capacity of the keg)
• leave the keg open with no containment vessel

I am going to set up a lye bath in one of two awesome 17-gallon tubs that are 20" across and 13.5" tall (found them on our local Craigslist). Please see the pictures. I need to do something with the extra tub; it is my preferred vessel for containing the electro.

When Russel showed me his set-up, he made sure to demonstrate the capacity of his system to cause minimal shock. He did this by touching the metal parts and also by sticking sticking his hand in the electrolyte while the system was running. With trepidation (in case Russell has x-man-like power over electricity) I followed suit and (happy to report) felt no current.

With that demo I am a bit less concerned about the danger to our cats.  That said, I was wearing tennis shoes which might have insulated me from the current; our cats... go shoeless.

Here are some pros and cons of using the 55-gallon drum as a containment vessel. Some of the benefits of the 17-gallon tub can be figured by inverting these.

Pros
• full containment
• lid possible
• structure of 55-gal barrel can be used to benefit
• slightly safer for cats

Cons
• takes more space (a premium commodity in my basement)
• less easy to access

Finally the questions!

I would appreciate hearing your opinions about the best practice for containing a fully enclosed stainless steel anode. I have not put it on a scale it but estimate that it weighs around 40 pounds. That's a lot of steel for 15.5 gallons of capacity. It intuitively seems that it should last a long time. Would there be a problem in using the keg with no containment vessel at all?

I am a little bit concerned about the generation of hydrogen but have hard time imagining that the electro will create enough gas to be a problem.

ps.  $50 seems a little steep for a permanently damaged keg but I agreed to pay it. I don't mind supporting a local brewery!

[C. Perry Rapier]

Hello Lewis.  I'm just curious, no, it's killin me. What kind of work do you do or have retired from? You know, your occupation.  :)

[Cheryl Watson]

and Perry... does Lewis remind you of someone else you might know???   ::) ::) ::)

[Lewis Downey]

Hello C. Perry.

I propose a trade, you share how you prefer to be addressed (C.? Perry? C. Perry? C. Perry Rapier? Mr. Rapier - assuming male gender? ) and I'll share my background. (hours later: I think I figured it out. You go by Perry, as in the "See Perry's Barrels Here" thread.)

I am a fine art large format black-and-white photographer by predilection. In practice that ended around the early 90's (pre-world-wide-web) because I failed at it financially. I picked a bit of computer science and inadvertently founded a small web development firm which did decent business until recently. Programming was a good fit for me; it's both technical and creative.

That business is in it's twilight years, and I am half-heartedly fighting a strong urge to return to large format film photography. I am not in a position to retire, so the fine art photography thing is financially scary, but I think I have to do it anyway.

Bottom line, I identify as an artist a person driven by creative reward.

How about you?

[Cheryl Watson]

Lewis,

First off, let me say that "Russell" what were you thinking???  LOL... that "man thing"!

Just make sure you aren't standing barefoot on concrete when you stick your hand in there, or you will find out mighty fast how conductive and grounding concrete can be... LOL.

I have a RATZAPPER that holds D cell batteries, and can kill mice, rats, chipmunks, and squirrels at the blink of an eye... and I don't want to test it on the neighborhood kitties....... but I diverge...


Now, Lewis, I would save the 55 barrel for future use, and larger projects.  I predict you will definitely need it! (so keep your eyes open for SS to line it with. )

I would place the beer keg in containment... always avoid potential messy breach spills.  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Now I think Chuck R. has been operating his electros pretty close to his furnace, and he hasn't gone boom yet... he is braver than I am... I would still want to ensure some sort of venitilation/dispersal.  I am still plotting and planning a basement placement.  Maybe someday... as space is not just a premium commodity, it is currently non- existant. 

Now if I turn the expensive studio piano into firewood.......  ::) :-?

I think that a 20 gallon Rubbermaid Roughneck would work well, and they are cheap, and would allow you to put the lid on it when not in use, thereby avoiding the "my kitty drowned while playing with the electro scenario".  (Currently $13.97 at Home Depot, but regularly on sale for $9.99).

[C. Perry Rapier]

Hello Lewis. I go by Perry. My name is actually a story in itself. Your work sounds very interesting. I like black and white photography, not that I can produce it, but rather admire it when someone else does. And I work in the railroad industry, so did my grandfather, so did my dad, so does my son. Here is an old black and white picture of my grandfather and my uncle. I was named after my uncle here.

[Marge Knowles]

I have a space in basement for a smallish lye tank.   my only concern is:  how to dump it?  without flooding the basement with nasty lye water.   I don't have a container with a drain.  suggestions?

[Ellis Morehead]

Lewis,

CPR's first name is available upon payment of a Erie spider logo skillet.  Well, maybe not, he is not that valuable in the current CI Market [smiley=biggthumpup.gif]

Let me know if we can do business ::)

Cheers, Ellis

[Cheryl Watson]

Ellis, behave yourself now!  ;D ;D

I have a space in basement for a smallish lye tank.   my only concern is:  how to dump it?  without flooding the basement with nasty lye water.   I don't have a container with a drain.  suggestions?

Marge, do you have a sink in the basement?

Sink or drain within a garden hose length distance.

[Marge Knowles]

0nly way I can think of to drain a tank is to buy a container with a drain plug thing.  I could put it next to a drain.  I am just not wanting to buy another container.  any other suggestions that do not involve a drain valve?  not sure of proper terminology

[Cheryl Watson]

DO.... YOU.... HAVE .... A.....SINK....OR LAUNDRY TUB... ON THAT LEVEL  ???  with FAUCET.

I really do have a reason for asking...

I am seeing you say there is a floor drain???

Is the cover removable???

[Cheryl Watson]

Water bed Siphon Kit to drain.

You need:

Faucet with running water.

One or two sections of hose, depending on where the water faucet is, and where the drain is.

If it is a utility or other sink with a faucet and drain, then you only need one length of hose.

[Marge Knowles]

GOTCHA!!!!  yes, I do have a sink.  near floor drain.  think I still may have a waterbed siphon  kit, also.   thank you!

[Cheryl Watson]

You can use several configurations with 2 hoses.... if the lye bath is lower than the 'sink', just leave the water turned on until it is drained... added bonus is you achieve dilution while draining.  I drain all of my lye baths using the waterbed siphon and outside faucets. 

One hose down into lye bath with clamp holding it in place...
other end attached to side port of siphon. (inflow)

Main running water attached to top end of siphon. (by garden hose, or screw directly onto faucet).

and can add another hose to exit end if needed... I just stick it down into the lateral drain/pipe.

Turn the water on, and voila.

You could empty down sink drain, or floor drain...

[Mark Zizzi]

Lewis,  if you put that keg inside your 17 gallon tub, it will  no longer hold 17 gallons. You'll have a 3" space to hold the leakage. I can't tell the height of that white tub, but if the water level in the keg is a lot higher than the top of the tub, I think it could spill over, should the keg ever leak...which is highly doubtful anyway. But if I understand this correctly, you plan on energizing the keg as your anode. I think I would want something around it, like the roughneck garbage can Cheryl suggested, just for insulation purposes.

Marge, I have both lye tub and electro tub in my basement. When it's time to empty, I just bail it out with a small plastic pail into a 5 gallon bucket and dump it outside. It takes a couple trips. I could dump it in my laundry sink down there but i have a septic tank and don't think the microbes would like it very much.  The lye water that is...the electro water is harmless and goes in the sink. I also have a walk-out basement, btw...makes it easy...maybe you don't. Stairs would make it a little more difficult...

[Lewis Downey]

<begin famous last words>

Mark, if the keg ruptures catastrophically and violently, I think there will be some spillage. If it develops a few lethargic leaks, I think the tub will contain the electrolyte.

Your concern forced me to do some seat of the pants estimating. The tub holds up to 17 gals and the keg holds up to 15.5 gallons.  At max capacities the difference is 1.5 gallons. In the event of a breach, some of the volume of the tub is displaced by the walls of the keg. The question seems to be do the walls of the keg take up more than 1.5 gallons "of space".

To take a shot at answering that question, I converted 1.5 gallons (of water) to cubic centimeters, found the density of one type of stainless steel in cubic centimeters and multiplied to find out how much 1.5 gallons of ss might weigh. It might weigh 96.36 pounds.

I haven't weighed the keg yet, but I estimate it to be in the 40-50 pound range. If it weighs less than 96 pounds (pretty likely) it will displace less space than 1.5 gallons of water. Since the keg is taller than the tub not all of the volume of the keg walls will displace volume in the tub - that works in my favor in case of a breach. I feel relatively confident that the tub would contain any breach that might occur.

<end famous last words><begin WAGSians waiting patiently for pictures of a big mess in my basement>

[Lewis Downey]

Maybe I'll put the keg in the 55-gallon drum until the drum is needed for larger pieces.



Is it correct to say that pieces will degunk faster if they are closer to the stainless steel electrode. In other words if the electrolyte has to conduct electricity a shorter distance?  How close is too close?

I am trying to ask if smaller pieces should be done in the keg even after the 55-gallon drum comes online as a large electro. I know that smaller pieces can be done in a big electro. If there is a choice between a smaller 15.5-gallon-keg-sized electro and a larger 55-gallon-drum-sized electro, which is preferable, for say, a #8 skillet?

[Lewis Downey]

Perry, Nice!

[Cheryl Watson]

I will reply when I get my computer back online,,,,  iPhone sucks for forum posting....

[Ellis Morehead]

Cheryl,
 [smiley=youtalkingtome.gif]

Cheers, Ellis