Author Topic: Is electrolisis ok for tool steel?  (Read 2633 times)

Offline Glenn Springer

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Is electrolisis ok for tool steel?
« on: February 07, 2015, 07:45:29 AM »
I heard that using electrolisis to clean rust off an old axe head would make it brittle by saturating the hardened steel with hydrogen. Can anyone tell me if this is true? Of course I heard this AFTER I cleaned an old Plumb double bit axe head, now I don't know if it will break when I use it.

Offline Mark Zizzi

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Re: Is electrolisis ok for tool steel?
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2015, 10:33:24 AM »
I've derusted a few tools with electro.. no difference that I can tell. I don't think that is correct Glenn.  :-?

Offline Glenn Springer

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Re: Is electrolisis ok for tool steel?
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2015, 10:38:19 AM »
Thanks Mark, that really bugged me. I know there are some people on here who talk like they must be chemical engeneers cause I can't understand most of what they are explaining, hope one will stop by and also respond.

Offline Mark Zizzi

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Re: Is electrolisis ok for tool steel?
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2015, 10:41:09 AM »
I bet someone will.  ;)

Edit: I have no idea who Ted Kinsey is, but for what it's worth, he says " Un-rusted metal is not affected in any way."
http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/electrolytic_derusting.htm
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 12:16:45 PM by mark21221 »

Offline Glenn Springer

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Re: Is electrolisis ok for tool steel?
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2015, 12:44:04 PM »
Thanks for the link Mark, sounds like good news.

Thanks Cheryl, I think it must be ok.

If anyone has different information I would appreciate it.

Offline Jeff Friend

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Re: Is electrolisis ok for tool steel?
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2015, 11:19:36 AM »
It may sound wrong at many levels, but it is true.

When metals or alloys are exposed to hydrogen under certain conditions, they can experience a loss of ductility.  This phenomenon is hydrogen embrittlement.  My understanding is that when hydrogen diffuses into the metal, it can cause internal stresses.  These stresses can eventually cause cracks or fractures of the metal well below the stress that would normally cause them to yield.  Several processes can cause hydrogen to migrate into a metal part.  See http://www.nace.org/Corrosion-Central/Corrosion-101/Hydrogen-Embrittlement/ for a description of some of these processes.

Since electrolytic cleaning is very similar to electroplating (which can cause hydrogen embrittlement) but at potentially higher voltages and current densities, it would seem possible that hydrogen embrittlement can occur in items we're cleaning in our electro set-ups.  One forum that I looked at said hydrogen embrittlement won't happen with cathodic cleaning, but the authors cited no technical references that supported their claim.  Some of the literature I looked at indicate that this is more of a problem in special alloys like stainless and tool steels, but I saw some references to cast irons, as well [reference Environmental Embrittlement of Ductile Iron, M. Gagné and K.L. Hayrynen].  Take a look at Chapter 2 of this book.  http://www.tau.ac.il/~chemlaba/Files/Electrodeposition/13208_02.pdf   It specifically mentions the chemical reaction that we observe occurring at the cathode - the reduction of water to hydrogen and the subsequent release of hydrogen bubbles.  This book also lists several steps (page 23) to avoid hydrogen embrittlement, including "Avoidance of cathodic cleaning, pickling or activation treatments whenever possible . . ."

You wouldn't think that an axe head is subject to high tensile stresses like a high-strength bolt, but the impact of using an axe very well could result in tensile stress somewhere in the tool.  Fortunately, there are methods to reduce the effects of hydrogen embrittlement if a process has been employed that may cause or contribute to it.   One process that would probably work for your axe head is baking it in the oven for a number of hours to drive the hydrogen out.  Look at page 24 of Chapter 2 for a graph, which shows results for baking a test piece at 149C.  A 24 hour bake may be out of the question, but you could just leave the axe head in the oven for a week or two and let the routine use of the oven do it.

Now, you may be wondering if hydrogen embrittlement is an issue for grey iron hollowware.  I don't know, but it does effect ductile iron castings.  However, I suspect that the heating and cooling of normal use will drive the hydrogen out.  Nevertheless, this is a reason not to overdo it by cleaning a piece for hours on end with with high current densities. 
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Offline Mark Zizzi

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Re: Is electrolisis ok for tool steel?
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2015, 01:26:37 PM »
Very interesting Jeff...I figured you would know. Didn't expect that answer tho. :-/ But it works so well I think I'll still do it and take my chances with certain rusty things.

Offline Jeff Friend

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Re: Is electrolisis ok for tool steel?
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2015, 06:03:16 PM »
Yes, Mark, certain rusty things are OK.  Other things are not.  I would never clean certain engine parts, such as connecting rod bolts or main bearing cap bolts.

Here is something that caused a lot of finger-pointing back in 2013.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/08/local/la-me-bay-bridge-bolts-20130509
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Offline Mark Zizzi

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Re: Is electrolisis ok for tool steel?
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2015, 06:18:41 PM »
No worries there, I quit tearing engines down back in the 70's. They were easy back then....now, forget it. But as for Glenn's axe head, I think he's okay splittin wood with it...what do you think?
Interesting article btw...now that's some serious bolts.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 06:22:46 PM by mark21221 »

Offline Jeff Friend

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Re: Is electrolisis ok for tool steel?
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2015, 06:40:27 PM »
I reckon Glenn is OK splitting wood.  I'd still give it the bake treatment because it won't hurt.
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Offline James Wilson

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Re: Is electrolisis ok for tool steel?
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2015, 07:35:43 AM »
Quote
I reckon Glenn is OK splitting wood.  I'd still give it the bake treatment because it won't hurt.

A friend of mine was an electro-plater and that is the advice he gave me for items to be chrome plated that were hi tensile and subject to loads. I cannot recall the specifics but it involved placing the spokes in the oven at a predetermined temperature for a fixed minimum duration.
 I never had a spoke break on me either,  but then I never laced them up. Dave from up the hill did that and he was brilliant
So, thats what we did when we chromed spokes for wheel rebuilds - didn't have to bother with the rims.

The other option was to take your chances or leave them on the shelf for an extended time; until the bike became vintage ;)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 07:45:27 AM by james »

Offline Glenn Springer

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Re: Is electrolisis ok for tool steel?
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2015, 09:42:39 PM »
Thank you very much for the info. Jeff ! I knew there was a brainiac on here somewhere. I've seen you explain very complicated issues before, you got some serious book learnin' man! I havn't used the axe yet but I just did one of my dad's old sledge hammers, guess I better use the oven for sure on that. It looks like that 149*C converts to 300*F so it sounds like if I just get an accumulated amount of 24 hours even over several days it should be ok ? Thanks again   Oh ! just thought, at what temp. do I ruin temper?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 09:52:30 PM by gwspringer »

Offline Jeff Friend

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Re: Is electrolisis ok for tool steel?
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2015, 11:54:10 AM »
Be careful with terminology.  Tempering is a heat treatment usually performed after hardening.  Tempering makes a tool tougher, but it reduces its hardness.

Something from Wikipedia . . .

source  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempering_%28metallurgy%29

Tempering is a process of heat treating, which is used to increase the toughness of iron-based alloys. Tempering is usually performed after hardening, to reduce some of the excess hardness, and is done by heating the metal to some temperature below the critical point for a certain period of time, then allowing it to cool in still air. The exact temperature determines the amount of hardness removed, and depends on both the specific composition of the alloy and on the desired properties in the finished product. For instance, very hard tools are often tempered at low temperatures, while springs are tempered to much higher temperatures. In glass, tempering is performed by heating the glass and then quickly cooling the surface, increasing the toughness.

Tempering quenched-steel at very low temperatures, between 66 and 148 °C (151 and 298 °F), will usually not have much effect other than a slight relief of some of the internal stresses. Tempering at higher temperatures, from 148 to 205 °C (298 to 401 °F), will produce a slight reduction in hardness, but will primarily relieve much of the internal stresses. Tempering in the range of 260 and 340 °C (500 and 644 °F) causes a decrease in ductility and an increase in brittleness, and is referred to as the "tempered martensite embrittlement" (TME) range. Except in the case of blacksmithing, this range is usually avoided. Steel requiring more strength than toughness, such as tools, are usually not tempered above 205 °C (401 °F). Instead, a variation in hardness is usually produced by varying only the tempering time. When increased toughness is desired at the expense of strength, higher tempering temperatures, from 370 to 540 °C (698 to 1,004 °F), are used. Tempering at even higher temperatures, between 540 and 600 °C (1,004 and 1,112 °F), will produce excellent toughness, but at a serious reduction in the strength and hardness. At 600 °C (1,112 °F), the steel may experience another stage of embrittlement, called "temper embrittlement" (TE), which occurs if the steel is held within the TE temperature range for too long. When heating above this temperature, the steel will usually not be held for any amount of time, and quickly cooled to avoid temper embrittlement.
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Offline Glenn Springer

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Re: Is electrolisis ok for tool steel?
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2015, 03:20:27 PM »
So it sounds like hours at 300* will not be a problem if I'm following you right. I don't know what internal stress means but I would think that relieving it a little would be a good thing. My intended question was about hardness but it seems hardness and toughness go hand in hand but at varying degrees. I guess put simply is it ok to use this sledge hammer to drive steel stakes into very hard rocky ground and it not crack or get beat up from softening ? Thanks again, I appreciate your help and expertise. Along with others on the WAGS site you make this a great organization to be part of.

Offline Jeff Friend

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Re: Is electrolisis ok for tool steel?
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2015, 02:33:06 PM »
Glenn,

My interpretation is that multiple hours at 300F will not be much of a problem. 

I thought the tool we were discussing was an axe head?  I do not know what will happen when you start hitting steel stakes into rocky ground.  A sludge hammer isn't an expensive tool, so you might as well use it and see what happens. 

Good luck and, as they say, always wear safety glasses.

Jeff
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