Author Topic: Wagner Gem Pan - Production Date  (Read 8969 times)

swamprat

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Wagner Gem Pan - Production Date
« on: March 03, 2003, 06:52:37 PM »
I'm wondering about the age of a Gem Pan that I just purchased.  It looks like the Wagner F-9 in the Griswold book, except that it has a gate on the bottom of the center two muffin cups.  It possibly is the F-9, but the F almost looks more like a P than an F.  The one in the Wagner Griswold book doesn't appear to have a gate mark.  Since it has the gate marks, I assume it would be earlier than the one without the gate mark, and was wondering if it might possibly be a P-9 instead of an F-9, if there was such a thing.  Was there a P-9, or would it be just a messed-up F.  Does anyone know what year it was made?  Are the ones with gate marks any more valuable?

Steve_Stephens

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Re: Wagner Gem Pan - Production Date
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2003, 07:02:13 PM »
Hi Swamprat,
Thanks for adding your real name.

Did you get your golfball pan from ebay?  If so you could send us the URL so we can take a look at any photos.   But, from what you say I would say that it is not a Wagner pan.  Wagner did mark most of their pans with a letter and/or catalog number, but many of the early ones were unmarked.  I do think I have seen a P on a golfball pan.  9 is the usual trade number of golfball pans.  If a P is on the pan it is not Wagner and I don't think that Wagner made any gated on the bottom pieces so I think you have a pan made by some unknown maker.  

Value is not really determined by whether or not a piece has a bottom gate but who made the item and which type of piece and which variation it is.  Since most collectors collect Griswold, Wagner and the other major makers' pieces, they are the ones that are going to command the higher prices and have more interest in them.  
Steve
« Last Edit: March 03, 2003, 10:26:22 PM by Steve_Stephens »

swamprat

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Re: Wagner Gem Pan - Production Date
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2003, 07:21:20 PM »
Steve,

I just changed my profile name.  Thanks for the advice on the pan.  I do not have a picture of it, as I bought it at a flea market just the other day.  It looks identical to the one shown on the bottom of page 80 of "The Book of Wagner & Griswold" by Smith and Wafford, with only the two differences I mentioned.  There are gate marks on mine, on the two center lobes, and the "F" in the one pictured really looks like a "P" on mine, but is in the same position and size.  It could just be a flaw in the casting, though, it is hard to tell.

Thanks,
Bill

Offline Will Person

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Re: Wagner Gem Pan - Production Date
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2003, 07:57:45 PM »
Bill,

Check the dimensions of the pan.   That is what I have done to see if it could be a Griswold or Wagner.

I have a unmarked turk head pan the matches exactly to a Wagner C pan.   Is it really Wagner?  Maybe?   Maybe not?  

Will P. [smiley=smoking.gif]

Steve_Stephens

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Re: Wagner Gem Pan - Production Date
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2003, 10:29:01 PM »
Most of all Bill, it is the gate mark that makes me think that there is little possibility that your pan is a Wagner since I can't remember ever seeing a Wagner gem pan with gate mark.  Joel, come to our rescue please.
Steve

Offline Joel Schiff

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Re: Wagner Gem Pan - Production Date
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2003, 12:54:30 AM »
 Hi -- I don't know if I can help out much.  In Wagners the 'F' designation was typically used where the '9' was used in the Griswold, & sometimes both together.  The 'P' is a completely different pan with trapazoidal cups(like the 'N'), which so far has only(to my knowledge) been seen in aluminum.  
So I think it is more likely that the 'p' marking is either a misformed 'f'. or a marking specific to some other company, or even a 'quality control' mark -- tho believe that the 'f' is more likely.
My own prejudice is that Griswold may, in fact, have initially produced early, otherwise unmarked Wagner #9/'F' style pans with the double loop handles.  We generally don't credit these to Gris as there is no PNs on them(but the early molds generally didn't have PNs), & what we know is Gris has the straight(vs. double loop) end tabs.  
The quality of these is often excellent, but most of the early major companies also produced high quality -- so it's hard to differentiate on that basis.
But like many pieces in what I call 'the common era' period, I think that there is a good chance that these were made by Gris for Wagner, when Wagner was just getting started, but wanted to present a complete product line, but wasn't up to all of its own production.  Perhaps, as a slight support, the 'missing' #19, 6-cup golfball pan that so far only appears in the Gris. catalogs, also has a loop handle.
 'Net botttom' -- if the 12 'golfball' has something that looks like an 'f' it should probably be considered Wagner, even if produced by Gris.
Wish I remembered better about the 'gate marks' -- joel schiff
"Give me Yesterdays Bread, This days Flesh, & last year's Cyder" -- Ben Franklin

Offline Greg Stahl

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Re: Wagner Gem Pan - Production Date
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2003, 08:09:26 AM »
Wow, Joel, you finally made it on the site!!  Good to see you and guess what..... I'm still battling that illness I had in NYC.  Been over one month now.
"NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY!!" Alice Cooper.

Steve_Stephens

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Re: Wagner Gem Pan - Production Date
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2003, 12:59:02 PM »
Quote

My own prejudice is that Griswold may, in fact, have initially produced early, otherwise unmarked Wagner #9/'F' style pans with the double loop handles.  

But like many pieces in what I call 'the common era' period, I think that there is a good chance that these were made by Gris for Wagner, when Wagner was just getting started, but wanted to present a complete product line, but wasn't up to all of its own production.  Perhaps, as a slight support, the 'missing' #19, 6-cup golfball pan that so far only appears in the Gris. catalogs, also has a loop handle.
 joel schiff


Thanks Joel.  
I doubt your reasoning on Griswold making pans for Wagner at the start but it certainly is possible.  Any connection between the early and unknown Griswold No.19 golfball pan and the Wagner or other loop handled full sized golfball pans is a long shot as the handles, even though both are closed, do not mimic one another but are quite different in shape.  Regarding initial quality of Wagner pans; from my experience they are the equal of any company and can surpass Griswold's quality.  I am talking about the pans from the 1890's.

For Griswold to have made any pieces for Wagner would require shipping them to Wagner I would think and that couldn't be cheap.  
I am assuming they would go to Wagner for distribution since I don't think that Griswold would take on that task.

I am pretty sure that I have seen some golfball pans like Bill has with a "P" and a "9" on the handles.  Maybe I am mistaken or maybe the P could be an F.  Would really have to see his pan to tell better.
Steve

Offline Harry Riva

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Re: Wagner Gem Pan - Production Date
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2003, 12:08:32 AM »
I have one of these pans and I never thought of it as a Wagner piece, the casting is just too rough. Iit has two very pronounced gate marks and the "P" is definitely a "P" and is located on the underside of one handle. If you are looking at the bottom of the pan so the "P" is correct then the number would be a 6, that is it only reads as a 9 when you invert the pan so the "P" is upside down.  The top of the handles are depressed along the outside edge but are similar to the Waterman pans with the writing on the handles. While not common, I have seen a number of them and bought this one after I had seen six or eight of them. I thought they may have been a Waterman, R & E, or made by R&E for somebody.  I know, I know, that's going to get me into another of the steel skillet thingys again. Stand by Cervesa, I may need you to defend me at the convention, or sooner. Should I take the 5th, or whatever number the ENRON guys used?

I will get pics to Greg in the next day or two. My digital camera needs downloaded and I'm wore out from all this typing.
Good night all.
Harry

swamprat

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Re: Wagner Gem Pan - Production Date
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2003, 12:23:04 AM »
After further cleaning, I too am positive that mine is a P, and not a malformed F.  The whole reason I was thinking Wagner is the one shown in the book.  The one in the book, which is in the Wagner section, even has the same asymmetry in the handle loops, and the "9" is identical.  It is my belief that the "F" on the one in the book could be a malformed 'P"!  The only other difference between the one in the book and mine (and yours, Harry), is the presence of gate marks.  The casting does look a little rougher on mine than in the book as well.

I'm glad to hear that you've got one like mine.  If you could get a pic, that would be very helpful.  I think it's possible that either the one in the book is not a Wagner, or ours are just earlier versions of it, before the process was improved, or both.

Bill

Offline Harry Riva

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Re: Wagner Gem Pan - Production Date
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2003, 12:45:28 AM »
I decided to stay up and download my pics. I am sending Greg 3 pics shortly.
Harry

swamprat

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Re: Wagner Gem Pan - Production Date
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2003, 11:24:07 AM »
Thanks Harry!  That's the exact gem pan I have.

Bill