Holy Graile Found???

[Wulfdog]

I went to an auction today.  There was a whole table of CI pans all but a few were #8 sizes.  They were nearly half and half Wagner and Griswold.  There was one rusty pan in the middle of the table with a gate mark on the bottom of it.  I asked my wife which pan on the table was the most valuable.  She picked a griswold.  I said no that unmarked rusty one with the gate mark on the bottom should be that oldest and most valuable.  We waited nearly all day for the pans to sell I finally asked the auctioneer to sell them. He did.  When they got to the old pan with the gate mark and the rust.  He asked the bid taker what it was he said it's a nothing pan.  The auctioneer said put something with it, so he held up another #8 pan with Good Health on the back of it.  I won them both.  Then when I got home I wiped the surface rust off the gate marked pan and it has the letters ERIE above the gate mark and a large #8 at the bottom.  I about fell over.  It is what I have always been looking for.

John

[Wulfdog]

Here is a link to the pictures of this pan.  The first picture from the top down is of a pan called Favorite the next is the Good Health and the last three pics are of the ERIE with the gate mark.

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=5256069&uid=2217872&members=1

John

[Greg Stahl]

John,
I'm of the opinion that none of these gated Erie skillets were made by Griswold.  I believe they were made by someone else.  The technology was such at the time that they did not need to use gates on the bottom.

You don't see many of them, but when you do they usually sell high.  Glad you found what you were looking for.  That is the best part of this hobby, everyone has things that they like and there is so much variety in the cast iron cookware.

[stockett1]

That is one old skillet. I would love to have it. You are very luckey to fid it and the  price was definately right. I have never seen one like it in my area. Are they very common elsewhere?

[Steve_Stephens]

Let me add some information that may have been posted here a long time ago about bottom gated Erie (and other) skillets.  I agree with Greg that Griswold probably never made bottom gated skillets.   Note that the link for the ebay auction is no longer good so there will be no photos to see.
Steve
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A recent ebay auction for an early style ERIE No.7 skillet with gate mark prompted me to post the following information.  The auction can be viewed at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2135085452
I don't know how long the photos will be viewable but if they are still there it will show you what I am talking about.

I have never really believed that Griswold made any bottom gated skillets, and research by a friend and me seems to be confirming this.  Most of the gated ERIE skillets I have seen are similar to the somewhat later series of ERIE skillets and not the very earliest types which can be determined by looking at handle, pouring lip and pattern number/no pattern number variations.  If Griswold had made gated skillets they would undoubtedly be the earliest Griswold (ERIE) skillets and would show the characteristics of the earliest pans (or even earlier characteristics of which none are known).

This pan referred to in the link IS of the earliest known series of ERIE skillets with scooped out underside of the handle, no reinforcing "pad" on the skillet wall where the handle attaches to the bowl, and the bowl rim is slightly raised above the top of the handle surface where the handle is.  I have an identical style ERIE skillet w/o the bottom gate which is slightly larger in diameter than the gated pan in the auction.  When a piece is COPIED FROM A PIECE there is shrinkage by a factor of 1/8" shrinkage per foot of diameter.  

Below I have copied, with the seller's permission, our email correspondence pertaining to his skillet.  I had emailed him to satisfy my curiousity as to whether his pan was slightly smaller in diameter (it is) which would indicate that it is a COPY FROM an original ERIE skillet and not a skillet that was cast from it's own pattern by Griswold.  I might add that both his ebay skillet and my slightly larger pan are both significantly SMALLER in diameter (by a larger factor than the 1/8" per foot shrinkage) than later ERIE skillets.  

Accurate measurements for this ebay skillet and my "real" Griswold ERIE skillet of the same series are in the emails below if you look closely.

It appears that the earliest ERIE No.7 skillets were quite a bit smaller than all the later ones and, at the time of manufacture, Griswold did not have a No.6 skillet in their line which can be verified from early catalogs.  A catalog sheet dated 1883 by the Selden & Griswold Mfg. Co. shows skilets in sizes 7-12.  The sheet states:
"The Selden & Griswold Manufacturing Company are the ORIGINAL manufacturers of "ERIE" Unpainted Ground Extra-Finish Hollow-Ware"
I am pretty certain that by "Extra-Finish" they are referring in part to the fact that the pieces are not bottom gated like most or other iron cookware was at the time.  (Griswold did make a few bottom gated items like some tea kettles, flat bottom bellied saucepans, and flat bottom round boilers).

If anyone has any information about this subject please contact me or post here.  This isn't necessarily the last word but is what makes the most sense to me with the current information available.
Steve
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OUR EMAILS: (most recent email at top so it may be easier to follow if you read email by email from the bottom.   Each email is separated by *******)

Steve,

Yeah, sure, the forum is OK by me.  I try to be as honest when I auction anything as possible, and the more info the better, but you know, I was just a collector like so many others.  
Thanks,
X (name withheld)
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Stephens"
To: X
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #2135085452

Hi X,
I think your skillet is VERY old.  I have a No.7 skillet that appears to have been copied from a slant/ERIE Griswold skillet and it has a thick bottom gate with LOTS of heavy wear on the bottom so that pan is quite old.

Another scenerio is that your pan was cast in some foundry by a person who just wanted to make a skillet by copying it.  Perhaps in an iron foundry class as an exercise?  Seems strange that anyone would leave the ERIE mark if it were from another company selling skillets.  But, then, there are the ROME No.12 skillets made from a Griswold block TM heat ring skillet where
all the info was left on the pan.  I just try to piece little by little
together until it all makes sense but I will admit that I don't have all the answers.

I may post our correspondence with you on an iron forum after the auction is over.  I don't want to interfere with your dealings and, who knows, your pan could be a real, early Griswold.  But I don't think so. If you have any objections to the posting let me know.  Just want to share information.
Regards,
Steve
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From: X
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:32:02 -0400
To: "Steve Stephens"
Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #2135085452

Steve,

Interesting information...Thanks!  You know, I have been collecting not only Griswold, but many old cast iron skillets, griddles, etc over more years than I would like to admit.  What you say makes sense, but in all my years of handling these things, you aquire a "feel" for age, vs reproductions or copies.  What are your ideas on the actual age of this item?  I have seen a lot of what I call "Mexican iron reproductions", and this is definately not in that class.  It sounds like you and your friend are quite knowledgeable,
and have done a lot of research on old iron   I would value any additional information you could furnish.

Thanks again,
X
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Stephens"
To: X
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #2135085452

Hi X,
Let me explain:
Years ago there were occasional ERIE skillets that turned up with gate marks.  I always thought they were "copy castings" from another foundry where the foundry used an old ERIE skillet to make a mold or pattern to make a new skillet.  I still think that is true.  Most of the gated ERIE skillets have been of a later style; in other words, not the earliest ERIE skillet that were copied so it made no sense that a later ERIE would have the gate mark that should have been the very first ERIE skillets (if Griswold had ever made bottom gated skillets).

But your pan appears identical to an ERIE No.7 I have that I think is the very first ERIE 7 skillet style or variation.  When a piece is cast in iron the shrinkage is 1/8" per foot.  My No.7 skillet measures 8-1/16" across the bottom diameter which is very close to 1/8" per foot to allow for shrinkage on your pan. The top diameter is 9-5/16".

I deduce, then, that your skillet was not made by Griswold (ERIE) but is also a copy casting.  A friend who is doing ongoing research on ERIE skillets agrees with my thinking on other ERIE pans he and I have gotten.  I am not writing a book but just like early ERIE skillets and other early stovetop skillets.  I had to satisfy my curiousity about your skillet to see whether it looks like it is a copy or an original from Griswold.
I do choose the former (a copy).  I know of no ERIE skillets that are definitely made by Griswold as having a bottom gate mark.

The weight of a skillet usually shows the care with which it was cast with the better quality pans being lighter in weight; but this is not always true.  My early No.7 ERIE pan weighs 2 lb. 15 oz.  Another thing about these very early ERIE skillets is that they are quite a bit smaller than later ones, being about 2/3 between a usual No.7 and a No.6.  At the time the early No.7's were made there was no No.6 in Griswolds inventory.  ERIE skillets without pattern numbers are usually quite thin and light in comparison to most other Griswold skillets.  The thinness is why they are often found with hairline cracks at the handle.  You will note that, on ebay now, there are several earlier ERIE skillets with cracks in them.

Thank you for your reply and good luck on your auction.  You may use this info on your site if you wish and I won't be complaining to anyone or any bidders that your piece is not an original Griswold pan.  How can I know for 100% certain?

Regards,
Steve Stephens
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From: X
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 02:48:14 -0400
To: Steve Stephens
Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #2135085452

Hey there,

Wow,  sorry can't help you with the exact weight, but the bottom is 7-30/32"  (the smoke ring or heat ring is a strong 1/16" thick itself, but not consistant around the entire bottom of the skillet ...maybe due to wear?).
The rim of the skillet is 9 8/32" from outside edge to outside edge,
and across where the handle attaches (90 deg from the pouring lips).  The upper rim of the skillet is also the same diameter as the heat ring, but seems to thicken at the pouring lips probably due to the increased angle at the apex of each lip.. Gosh, hope this helps...you writing a new book or something?  Off the cuff, the weight seems a bit heavier than the typical LG block TM No.# 7 with heat ring (while holding both at the same time)...But you would expect that wouldn't you?

Thanks,
X
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----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Stephens
To: X
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 12:11 AM
Subject: Question for seller -- Item #2135085452

VERY EARLY Griswold Erie No. 7 Skillet
Item # 2135085452

Hello,
Can you give me a very accurate measurement of the bottom of this skillet taken across the very outside of the heat ring at its maximum diameter.   Accurate to 1/32 or better would be best.

A similar measurement across the top of the skillet from outside to
outside (but not including the lips) would be great too, but the
bottom measure ment is the one I need the most.

Only if you happen to have an accurate scale could you weigh the pan itself?   Yeah, I know, I am into details.

This is the first gate mark version of the earliest ERIE version
skillet I have seen.

Thank you,
Steve Stephens
--------------------

Question from:        Steve Stephens
Title of item:           VERY EARLY Griswold Erie No. 7 Skillet
Seller:                  gaoutback
Starts:                  Aug-26-02 16:10:20 PDT
Ends:                    Sep-02-02 16:10:20 PDT
Price:                   Currently $36.16
To view the item, go to:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2135085452

[Wulfdog]

Guys,

I could be totally wrong, but this pan has "ERIE" on the bottom.  The E is right up against the gate mark. It also has the quotation marks at each end of the word ERIE. The pan is really thin walled and the bottom looks a whole lot like the ERIE pans I looked at on Ebay.  The interior of this pan has circles in it like the inside of it had been turned on a lathe or something.

If it is not Griswold,  who could have made it and who could I ask about it?

John

[Harry Riva]

John, I think the consensus seems to be that these pieces were cast from a mold that was made from an authentic ERIE skillet and then they were bottom poured by whomever was doing the recast. The bottom gate mark is used on a type of ERIE skillet that has several generations of ERIE skillets older than it cast thru the side of the skillet rim rather than the bottom.  So the question is why would they have gone back to casting with a bottom gate when earlier versions were no longer cast thru the bottom. Also, the skillet with the gate mark is smaller than the non-gate marked edition, suggesting a re-cast. Don't know if you can ever tell who did a re-cast. I have this bottom gate 7 and I keep meaning to compare it to my other 7 ERIE skillets but I just keep forgetting to.
Harry

[Wulfdog]

My wife and I were talking last night after we read Steve's letter and we got to thinking, the "ERIE" being so light that it's almost unreadable would lead us to believe it must be a copy.  Oh well I was exciting at first.  Now that I have accepted that it is a copy,[smiley=angryfire.gif] is it worth anything.  Is it worth the $3.00 I paid for it? [smiley=crying1.gif]

Also no one said anything about the Good Health and the Favorite Piqua Ware pans in my pictures.  Are they worth anything? [smiley=yes.gif]

John

[Greg Stahl]

$3!!!!!  You got nothing to worried about. I would have paid $5 just to have it for a conversatin piece.  I've seen them sell a lot higher on Ebay.

The other two pans/skillets are size 8.  In general, anything in a size 8 is fairly common (exceptions, ERIE spider, smooth bottom slant TM) and don't command a high price.  As a ballpark in value, I'd say about $15-25.  These however are greater user sizes and you can't even get good iron skillets IMO for that price.

[Wulfdog]

Greg,

Can a person ever expect to find a pan with the spider web still intact on the bottom.  Are there any examples of them on the internet?

John

[Greg Stahl]

Absolutely John.  In fact just this year one was on Ebay that sold for over $3000.  I've owned 5 spiders over the years, with 3 being just about perfect.  I currenly have one perfect one and another that has some pitting on the cooking surface.  I am gong to bring that pitted one to ERIE to put up for sale on my table for $1300.  The spider is pretty good on it, but the cooking surface is not that great.  It will display well though.

[Harry Riva]

John, At $3 you should be tickled, I put $70 into mine years ago when I thought it was authentic.
Harry

[stockett1]

I have been reading the comments about the back gated ERIE skillets and have a sujestion. Has anybody checked the quality of the  lip. All the true back gated pieces I have are smooth and even all the way arround. The lip qated pieces all have a hand ground area just to the right of the handle. If there is an uneven lip to the right of the handle  on the back gated piece the piece must be a recast. If not it must have been made with an origional backgated mold. I would be very intrested in the results of the examination.

[Wulfdog]

Ron,

That's a great idea.  [smiley=clap.gif] I will check my pan this evening to see if the side is any different.  I will post tomorrow to let you know what I find out.  I wish I still had a caliper, but I will eye ball it.  

John

[Wulfdog]

Greg,

Are the ERIE pans on this page copies like mine?

http://www.the-panhandler.com/skillets.html

Also are the prices they're asking pretty high?

John

[Greg Stahl]

A lot of Joe's stuff is priced pretty high, but some of his stuff is also hard to find.  I don't believe any of those gated pieces are real Griswold/ERIE skillets.

[stockett1]

John:

You should not need a caliper.The right side of the lip on all my "ERIE" skillets is visablly flattened by the grinding off the lip gate. My old no name back casted skillets and my GFF St. Louis skillet have perfictly smooth and rounded lips. If one of the lip gated  skillets was used to create a mold for recasting It would be almost impossable to hide the poor lip quality.

[stockett1]

Greg:
Are you saying Selden & Griswold  never made skillets at the Butt Factory in the early years? I thought it started buisness arround 1868.  When was the lip gating method developed?

[Greg Stahl]

Greg:
Are you saying Selden & Griswold  never made skillets at the Butt Factory in the early years?

I don't recall ever stating that.  

I don't know the year for the lip gating method.  Steve is a better person to ask dating questions.

[JR Doffin]

        Ron,
  I just checked a bottom gated pan that I have that looks like an ERIE #10. It has grinding marks next to the handle and the marks are smooth like they are a copy of what was on the pattern when the iron was poured. You are right , a lip gate and a bottom gate would not be on the same pan!
     I never thought to check that out!
                     JR