Griswold #13 Skillet Brass Pattern

[Jerry Cermack]

I'd like to throw this out for some opinions. I have run across an unusual Griswold item.  It is a Griswold Solid Brass skillet pattern for for a small logo #13.  It appears that a solid brass skillet was poured using a #13 block epu skillet mold. The following changes have been made to the brass pattern.
1. The words CAST IRON SKILLET  have been filled in and the 13....and NO. 13 recut into the brass pattern.
2. The large block logo has been filled in and a small logo recut into the brass pattern.
3. The ERIE PA, USA has been filled in and Erie, PA recut into the brass.

In other words, this pattern has been filled with some type of material, and changed to make a small logo #13 that was never produced to my knowledge.......

I'd like to hear any comments on this one of a kind item, any guess as to value?

I believe this #13 skillet brass pattern was shown a few years ago at the G&CIC convention in St. Louis.

[Steve_Stephens]

Glad to see you made it onboard here Jerry.
What you have is a very rare item.  Do you think it is genuine Griswold and not something made by someone else?  Is the quality of the markings consistant with what Griswold did?

As for value that may be hard to tell.  A while ago an iron/brass prototype, master pattern, or whatever you would call it of a scotch bowl was run through ebay several times.  It failed to meet reserve at least once and I thought the price was lower than such a rare piece would bring.  But that may be because Scotch Bowls are not the most highly collected Griswold.   No.13 skillets are quite popular so I would think you might get somewhere over $500 for your piece.  Way over $500.  Run it through ebay and see what you are offered.

Can you post a photo here of your pan?  You'd probably have to send the photo to Greg and he should be able to post it.

I would LOVE to see the piece and have never heard of its existence before.  Is it solid brass?  I would have expected that it would be cast iron with the modifications from the block TM 13 skillet made with brass.
Steve

[Jerry Cermack]

Steve,
I dont have the skillet but it can be bought.....it is solid brass ...and as I understand, they used brass to make patterns then made the cast iron mold off that....it truly looks to be Griswold ....the lettering and all is exact....most unusual thing I've seen!.....a brass Griswold pattern for a super hard to find skillet in a small logo that they never produced!....hows that for unusual?.....

[Steve_Stephens]

How badly do you want the pan?  That's what it is worth.
The only Griswold pattern I have ever seen is the No.0 skillet pattern pictured in the L-W Book Sales Griswold (first volume) book on p.69 and on rear cover.
The skillet part of the pattern is made of aluminum.  I don't know what other Griswold pattern were made of.  Molding sand is packed around the pattern to make the MOLD in which the iron is poured.  The mold is used only once as it is broken to remove the casting.  

A pattern has to be fractionally larger than the finished piece to allow for the shrinkage of 1/8" per foot when the casting cools.  That brass skillet should be about 3/16" larger than a standard No.13 skillet if it is a pattern or part of one.  If it is the same size I would think it is a prototype to be send to the pattern maker so he can make the necessary pattern to duplicate the prototype.  I bet that is what the piece is; a prototype since a pattern is not a skillet but just parts to pack the sand around to make the mold which will then make a skillet.
So, to recap, the pattern would be aluminum, wood, iron, brass, plastic, etc. (though I don't know what Griswold used-probably aluminum, brass or iron).
The mold is made of molding sand.
The skillet is made in the mold which is made from the pattern.

What we need for a field trip at the first WAGS convention is a trip to a foundry to see the way they make castings.  It is fascinating to watch but my experience is limited to a local steel foundry that makes truck suspension castings and I have had to watch the process from outside the door (thanks OSHA and insurance companies).  When that electric furnace with it's 6" diameter carbon electrodes gets going you have to cover your ears from the noise.  Beautiful!!
Steve

[StevenG]

 A while ago an iron/brass prototype, master pattern, or whatever you would call it of a scotch bowl  

Just to chime in.... the term for a piece to make a mold is called a plug and you use a plug to make a mold.  at least that is the factory term we used at Bayliner in the late 80's for all castings be it fiberglass or pot metal or whatever.
Now to make your Plug you make a model

Just incase anyone cares
Steve G ;D

[Greg Stahl]

is that the same skillet that Joe Noto was shown holding in the PanHandler back when??  Joe, what is your opinion of the piece?  Original, non-production?

Jerry, glad to see you on the FORUM, as I've seen you on Ebay for several really nice pieces.  Sorry to hear about that 280 and your bid.   What ever happened to that piece, as I was on vacation when the auction ended and began again, but can't find it.

[Jerry Cermack]

Thanks for the welcome!.....The man that relisted the pan i bought has pulled it off ebay due to too many emails and flack he said........he still has the pan if your interested in it......

The brass pattern, plug, or whatever it is, probably is the one your speaking of....Dave Smith told me it was shown in St. Louis at the convention some time ago....but no one want to venture a guess as to value....

[Steve_Stephens]

Just to chime in.... the term for a piece to make a mold is called a plug and you use a plug to make a mold.  at least that is the factory term we used at Bayliner in the late 80's for all castings be it fiberglass or pot metal or whatever.
Now to make your Plug you make a model

Just incase anyone cares
Steve G ;D

Steven,
From a neat little reprint book I got recently on ebay entitled Secrets of Green-Sand Casting and originally printed in 1906, pattern is defined as:
"A pattern, in connection with the foundry and machinery business, is understood to be a form by the use of which a mold may be made".
Maybe in todays foundry business and the fiberglass business it is called a plug but not for our iron.  The book I refer to is from the era when our collectibles were being made new and the terminology should be accurate for that time.   I heard the term plug used on tv last night on a History program about the building of the Chesapeak Bay Bridge Tunnel.  They were showing how the precast roadway was made in "plugs".  But that is today and it was dealing with a low temperature material, not molten cast iron.
Steve

[Greg Stahl]

Jerry,
Never saw the gem pan, but was told about it and saw you won it for $35.  What a rip off that you didn't get it,  Sellers have too much power on Ebay, IMO.

[StevenG]

Steven,
From a neat little reprint book I got recently on ebay entitled Secrets of Green-Sand Casting and originally printed in 1906, pattern is defined as:
"A pattern, in connection with the foundry and machinery business, is understood to be a form by the use of which a mold may be maded".
Maybe in todays foundry business and the fiberglass business it is called a plug but not for our iron.  The book I refer to is from the era when our collectibles were being made new and the terminology should be accurate for that time.   I heard the term plug used on tv last night on a History program about the building of the Chesapeak Bay Bridge Tunnel.  They were showing how the precast roadway was made in "plugs".  But that is today and it was dealing with a low temperature material, not molten cast iron.
Steve

As I stand corrected.. I also put the date in my post of mid 80s I meant 1980s when I was alive and I had a gut feeling that I would be corrected either by you or someone but did they write maded or was that a typo by you?

[Steve_Stephens]

Steven,
Yes, that was a typo that I maded.  How that extra "d" got tacked on to the end of "made" I don't know.  At least I didn't FEEL it when it got typed thay whey.  Fixed in the original poste.  Must have occured in the haste.
Steve

[Rich]

My only knowledge on the casting process involves the use of wax...

Make a master mold.  Pour wax into it to get a wax casting of the desired piece.  Cover the wax piece with the sand mixture.  Heat the sand, the wax melts out leaving the shape of the desired piece in the mold. Fill it with molten iron or steel, wait 'til it cools and break the sand away.  There's your finished product...

I don't know where a solid brass piece would fit into this process other that to be a master to work from...

[StevenG]

Richard the process you are talking about is called "Lost Wax" wher the original form for the mold is lost once melted.  That process is done with a softer wax than a candle and allows for more intricate details to molded or carved into the piece,  Artist will do that style of casting with Bronze alot.  but in your response as to where the bronze would fit in would be like this:

the form for the green sand will be in two pieces.
you would lay the "Plug"  upside down on a work surface. and set one half of the form over it and you would pour sand over your Plug and pound the heck out of it untill it is firm or use a press. then the next step would be to cover the top of your form and flip it over.
then you would sprinkle a releasing agent over the sand
and then you would set the other half of the form on top and fill that with green sand and pound or press it untill it is rock hard or firm.  then since I forgot to mention they add water to green sand they would let the mold set for a while and dry out.
then they would seperate the two thanks to the release agent and pull out the "Plug"
and put the two together and fill with cast iron and there you have it in a nutshell
so they would use bronze because it is sturdy enough to take the pounding and it is soft enough to re-engrave with a different TM or make any corrections


Steve please correct me in this if I'm wrong

SteveG

[Steve_Stephens]

Be very careful Rich when you pour the molten iron into that plaster mold.  I think the iron is way above the melting point of plaster so you will have iron burning through your toes.  You are talking about lost wax casting.  When you are dealing with the very high temp. of iron the techniques and materials are a bit different.  Anyone having the opportunity to see a casting process should do so.  Some colleges have bronze foundries for sculptures.
They do use plaster for the mold as bronze is much lower temp. in the molten state than iron.  I'm not SURE that plaster would not work as a mold for iron; I'd have to do some more checking.
Steve

[Rich]

What I was referring to is called "investment casting"...

Used in the manner I described by the firearms industry for one..

But I'm drifting away from Jerry's original question...

[Harry Riva]

Some words on the 13 "pattern". I would assume this "pattern" is the one that Joe showed in the newsletter and the one that was at the convention. The owner contacted me in mid 1998 and sent me some pictures and the piece  it looked like it was made of brass, albeit tarnished. All of the block log marks were still readable and had been filled in with a white substance as I remember. If memory serves me correctly the lips were either made from a different material or were a different color than the "brass" part of the piece. I tried to find the pics on my pc but I must have deleted them somewhere along the way. It was unusual because it was a small logo 13 "pattern". The owner thought it was worth a bunch of money, way. way more than the max price of a perfect 13. I ventured an opinion that the piece was possibly made as a model for possible manufacture in Sidney. I can't recall if the "new" pattern bottom had an ERIE PA. on it. It seems to me the owner was from an antique store in Tenn., or Kentucky and he had several very very large pictures of the piece.
Harry

[Jerry Cermack]

Harry,
Your memory is right. All the markings of the block logo EPU skillet are filled in with a whitish but almost clear material and new lettering and small logo is cut into the skillet.  It does have ERIE PA. under the logo.  NO. 13 above the logo.  I believe it to be solid brass, uncleaned or polished.  It is an interesting conversation piece to say the least.

[Jerry Cermack]

I have taken pictures of this brass pattern #13....will have greg post them.....I hope you can see how it has been changed to a small logo Erie, PA

[Greg Stahl]

[Steve_Stephens]

Jerry,
Thanks for the photos (and Greg).  Do you have the pan now or is it still owned by the person who had it on ebay?  Have you checked the diameter to see if it is the same size as, larger, or smaller than an original 13 skillet?  I'd love to know what the material is that was used to fill in the old markings.  Perhaps this piece was never made as Griswold may have been bought just before it went into production.
Steve