"Wagner" #11

[Dwayne Henson]

Am I correct in assuming that this is of the 1891-1910 Series? In the red book, page 10,  it shows the "WAGNER" in an arc, and more towards the top than this one. This one has the "WAGNER" straight and more centered on the pan.. I just want to make sure. Thanks Dwayne

[Dwayne Henson]

Handle attachment view

[Will Person]

I can't vouch on the date,  but she looks nice and OLD.   She is a keeper. :o


Will 8-)

[Roger Barfield]

Dwayne, that is a good question.  I have a #12 with the "WAGNER" in an arc at the top and this looks very similar.  I haven't seen a reference that lists dates for the one like you have, but I bet the dates are not far off.  As Will said, definitley a keeper.

[Steve_Stephens]

Dwayane, that is an early Wagner but I don't know the exact date.  I'd say it is series 1 or 2.  Having both the Wagner arc and Wagner straight line I can see no differences that say which is the earlier of the two.  I would say these early Wagners belong in the 1890's only and not any later.  They pretty much mimic the series 2 ERIE's in their style.  They are my favorites of the Wagners.  Not sure if I've seen the 11 before.

Steve

[Dwayne Henson]

Roger can you post a photo of the handle atachment area for me of your arc #12. Curious to see if they are the same.

[John Knapp]

Dwayne...  According to a Wagner book that I have, that series is 1891-1914.  It does not say if they are arc or straight.

[Roger Barfield]

Roger can you post a photo of the handle atachment area for me of your arc #12. Curious to see if they are the same.

here you go

[Roger Barfield]

It is different now that I see it side by side.  Here is an ERIE #11 I have that looks similar as well.

[Roger Barfield]

Upon further review, Dwayne it reminds me the most of a #8 ERIE I sold a while back.  Look at the handle area.

[C. Perry Rapier]

I'd say that number 11 Wagner in the first picture is the oldest. Notice how in the first picture, the  11 handle is thin up next to the body of the skillet, and that it has the obvious brace running along under the handle going aways back.

As the later skillets were made, they were thicker in the handle up next to the body and therefore the less need for the brace and the reinforced pad, as in the 11. We know that as skillets got newer the pad and reinforcement went away, so I'd say, the reinforced pads were going away, as evidenced by the other two pictures of the skillets, which clearly show less pad.

Those are my thoughts anyway. I am always anxious to hear what others have to say. Besides, if I keep talking about these handles you all are going to start calling me Steve Stephens.

I wish he wouldn't talk about them so much. Everytime I pick up a skillet anymore I look at the handle first. I ain't tellin him though.

[Steve_Stephens]

Now mind you Perry, I am not tralking about handles now but about the shape of parts of the skillet that will remain untold.
The 12 that Roger posted is the earliest style with what corresponds to an ERIE with "scoop" handle that would be series 1.  Dwayne's No.11 straight line WAGnER corresponds to an ERIE series 2 and Roger's No.8 with the pattern number would be a series 2-1/2 or series 3.  These pans are like series 2 but are heavier; still nicely cast however.  I would put them in a third series but there are others who are determining series independently and who knows where they place series.  Roger's photo 9381 would be series 3 or 4 and comes after series 2-1/2 or 3.  Not much style to these pans but the earlier series are all nice with series 2 the nicest in my opinion.  It seems like several different foundries either used old patterns from Griswold or copied them.  Wagner's first series is so alike Griswold series 2 skillets.  Marion also made a similiar pan with an ERIE ghost.  And there were others.  Oh, ERIE series 1 is not as finely cast as their series 2 pans.

Steve

[C. Perry Rapier]

Steve, if you think about it sometime I would appreciate it if you could post or show something that in your opinion is the ERIE 1 series. I thing from earlier discussion you said that in your opinion the griswold spider was in the 2 series, so they 1 would have be pre 1870 or around in there?

[Steve_Stephens]

Perry, see the photo in Roger's reply #7 above.  Whether that's an ERIE or other make, it is like the series 1 ERIEs with their "scooped" handle and no reinforcing pad.  Some series 1 ERIEs may have had a reinforcing pad but can't remember.  Mostly, no, though.  Series two added the pad, the lips changes a little (or a lot in the case of the 10 ERIE ser. 1 which had very prominant lips that went way down into the pan).  After series 3 (like series 2 but with p/n) the reinforcing pad on the handle was flared into the skillet side and pretty much disappeared.  I don't think there is any Griswold cookware as old as 1870 and put c.1879 (a guess) as the starting date for cookware production.  Remember that Griswold started as a hardware manufacturer.  Look at the Selden & Griswold waffle irons, especially the early "patent appl'd for" one in the blue (?) book.  The raised writing is different than the more usual Griswold style and we know that iron is probably from 1879 or 80 and it could be the first Griswold cookware.  I know the books say about 1870 but where did that date come from.  Nobody has replied to any of my queries about that date.

Steve

[C. Perry Rapier]

steve, yes, I see what you are saying. However, I would have thought the earlier one would have been the one with the heavily reinforced pad because it is thinner at that point, later made thicker, and thus no longer the need for the extra reinforcement. Thanks again for your reply and patience.

[Dwayne Henson]

Thanks Roger for the photos, I learn best when I can see something. Thanks Steve and Perry for the discussion, The Red& Blue books don't include this kind of knowledge.

[Roger Barfield]

The Red& Blue books don't include this kind of knowledge.

Dwayne, that is the great part about WAGS, I think it was Marty that called it cast iron univiversity.  She was right. ;)  BTW I'm the same way about needing to see it to learn it.

[Steve_Stephens]

steve, yes, I see what you are saying. However, I would have thought the earlier one would have been the one with the heavily reinforced pad because it is thinner at that point, later made thicker, and thus no longer the need for the extra reinforcement. Thanks again for your reply and patience.

Well, the earliest Griswolds had no reinforcing pad but the pad was added after a while, probably in response to the pan's sidewalls cracking next to the handle.  They still cracked even with the pad on the series 2 pans.  On one skillet I have with a sharp reinforcing RIB between handle and pan's side, the lower part of the sharp rib cracked through the skillet wall slightly.  As time went by Griswold and other foundries fine tuned their castings to make them better and/or more cheaply while still maintaining the quality they wanted.

Steve

[babyface]

Steve: You've touched on a subject I've often wondered about. Just why do these cracks develop on skillet sidebowls (especially the early ERIEs)? Are they a result of the pan being dropped or jarred? Are they a result of the pan sides being stressed when it is at the bottom of a heavy nest of skillets? Do they develop over time as the pan is used due to a poor casting reacting to the substantial temperature variation a skillet is subjected to? It does seem that the preponderance of cracks appear around the handle and pouring lip areas of most pans. Its important enough that you need to carry a magnifying glass and outdoor lighting to check out a prospective purchase to protect yourself from this very troubling phenomina of CI collecting. Thanks and best regards.

[Paul Beer]

Dwayne...  According to a Wagner book that I have, that series is 1891-1914.  It does not say if they are arc or straight.

John, what Wagner book would that be?