Trip to Cast Iron Junkyard - GhostMarks Discussion

[Dwayne Henson]

Here is close up of the apostrophes

[Dwayne Henson]

Here is a side by side comparison of the two skillets. They were made in different foundries, molded by different men, poued by different men, but are the same. Why? They came from the same pattern. WHy are other ghostmarked items different sizes if they are from the same patterns?

[Dwayne Henson]

Wan't going to add this, but what the heck.

For you newer ones, Steve Stephens is/was an acknowledged expert in Cast Iron Cookware. He and Greg Stahl both are among the ones acknowledged in the beginning of the Blue Book. Steve, Joel Schiff, and David G. Smith (Red and Blue Book fame) are acknowledged in Linda Franklin's Kitchen Collectibles book that I have. Steve was also the author of the Cast Iron Cookware News that we have in the PDF file. The man knew cast iron. Period. Steve not being here anymore was more due to personality, not due to lack of knowledge.

[Ray Benash]

I think those "Sidney Script" Erie Ghost examples are pretty cool. I think I would have to pick one up if I saw one. Just for the fun factor. A triple ghost? Way cool! I'm of the same opinion as Perry AFA why we see these ghost skillets.

Ray,
  If you like triple ghosts, you should check out Clark Rader's Frankenstein skillet.

http://www.griswoldandwagner.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1227718876

Yes I did - pretty awesome. That mold made a few journey's!

[LMG10]

Hi all,

Am still getting my feet wet here with CI, but my heart skipped a beat when I read this post!  I have a skillet that I thought was an ERIE but it wasn't matching up with the characteristics in the Erie article...there is a script "Sidney" below the block ERIE.  

Am still learning all the CI ins and outs but it didn't make sense to me...the combination of the ERIE and Sidney.  It sounds like I've got a ghost too!  It's a #8 and, if the "Sidney" wasn't there, it looks to match a 2nd or 3rd series ERIE otherwise.  

Mine looks like the pic Anthony Richerson posted of his ERIE/Sidney.

Thanks so much for helping!

Laura

[Jeff Seago]

Laura if at all possible could you post a picture of your skillet??

[LMG10]

Hi Jeff,

Will give it a whirl...first time posting pics.  I'm in the middle of cleaning the piece so it's hard to see the ghost ERIE--especially in the pics.  

Laura

[LMG10]

Here's another with highlights.

[Chris Stairs]

Seems pretty clear to me Laura,
  That is a nice Sidney "Script Logo" skillet with a ghost "ERIE" marking. A very nice find!
  

[Dwayne Henson]

Nice find Laura!
Those ghostmark items are so interesting because of all the possibilities. I wish we could keep a running list of the ghostmarked items that show up and their size compared to the original item. A very small percentage are the same size as the original item. The Wagner and Sidney Skillets shown above are the same size, Perry has a Wagner CO that has a Griwold ghostmark and that Wagner is the same size as a Griswold CO. To me the ghostmarked items that are the same size as the originals are most intriguing, because in my mind that really opens up the possibility that the original foundry sold their patterns or cast the item for another foundry. Then the question come: if the pattern was sold why would the buying foundry do such a poor job in covering up the original logo? Why would you advertise for another company? If for example Griswold cast the skillet for Sidney, why would Sidney pay for a skillet that advertised Griswold and their own inability to make a pattern? Griswold throughout it's history cast items for a variety of companies and ghostmarks weren't a problem with those items. (I'm thinking; Sears, Western Importing, Anderson).

Now a real question. I do not have any script Sidney Skillets. If you have a scripted Sidney skillet and a the corresponding series Erie Skillet will you check and see if they are the exactly the same? I guess what I'm asking is did Sidney make their own patterns, did they buy their patterns, did they buy skillets, or did they borrow a skillet and make a pattern?

[Ed Allspaugh]

Here is a side by side comparison of the two skillets. They were made in different foundries, molded by different men, poued by different men, but are the same. Why? They came from the same pattern. WHy are other ghostmarked items different sizes if they are from the same patterns?

   The Sidney piece and the Wagner piece were cast in the Wagner plant in Sidney. Reason they are the same size is that they took two patterns and modified one to read Wagner the other to read Sidney.
  
   " Why poor job of covering logo?".. Eventually what was used as fill would wear and the ghost woud begin to appear..

[Dwayne Henson]

Good Morning Ed,
I understand physically how the ghostmarks are made, I'm not asking the question corrrectly, Why would you allow an item with another foundry's name on it to exit your foundry, and be sold under your name? The Wagner and Sidney skillets I have I don't really see a problem, as you can barely see them and the Wagner family owned both at that time. In my mind that would be like finding a Chevy marked item on a GMC truck. But it would raise my eyebrows to find a Ford alternator under a Chevy hood. I'd have to ask why? You think that if nothing else pride would prevent it from happening.The size question was about other ghostmarked items that show up here, they usually are smaller than the original. I was using the Sidney and Wagner pans I have as an example of a pattern being used in two different places and have the same results. Those two skillets did not grow smaller they are the same size.

Ed, I do not have any script Sidney Skillets. If you have a scripted Sidney skillet and a the corresponding series Erie Skillet will you check and see if they are the exactly the same? I guess what I'm asking is did Sidney make their own patterns, did they buy their patterns, did they buy skillets, or did they borrow a skillet and make a pattern?

[Ed Allspaugh]

Good Morning Ed,
I understand physically how the ghostmarks are made, I'm not asking the question corrrectly, Why would you allow an item with another foundry's name on it to exit your foundry, and be sold under your name? The Wagner and Sidney skillets I have I don't really see a problem, as you can barely see them and the Wagner family owned both at that time. In my mind that would be like finding a Chevy marked item on a GMC truck. But it would raise my eyebrows to find a Ford alternator under a Chevy hood. I'd have to ask why? You think that if nothing else pride would prevent it from happening.The size question was about other ghostmarked items that show up here, they usually are smaller than the original. I was using the Sidney and Wagner pans I have as an example of a pattern being used in two different places and have the same results. Those two skillets did not grow smaller they are the same size.

Ed, I do not have any script Sidney Skillets. If you have a scripted Sidney skillet and a the corresponding series Erie Skillet will you check and see if they are the exactly the same? I guess what I'm asking is did Sidney make their own patterns, did they buy their patterns, did they buy skillets, or did they borrow a skillet and make a pattern?

 Unless the ghost is very apparent, I would say the manufacturer did not care.  Folks that bought skillets back when did not put them under the scrutiny that we do, and may not have even seen them. If they did they probably did not care either. They just wanted to cook in it.  :)

  SIDNEY skillets are Wagner produced as far as I know. They are not Sidney Hollow Ware. The script Sidneys are SHW and I do have a couple SHW script #8 skillets and #8 ERIEs to compare them to. I think the scrpit Sids I have are ghosted. It will be a day or do before I can dig them out for comparison.

[Dwayne Henson]

Thanks Ed.
 I'm curious to see if the ghostmarked scripted Sidneys and the non ghostmarked scripted Sidneys are the same size. And if both scripted Sidneys, (ghostmarked and not ghostmarked) are the same size as the corresponding ERIE skillet.

If those skillets are all the same size, and handle type (ghostmarked scripted Sidney, non-ghostmarked scripted Sidney, and ERIE), in my mind this would be evidence of a definite link with Griswold. A Griswold pattern would have had to be used. Either by Sidney by purchasing it from Griswold or the items were cast by Griswold for Sidney. And if Sidney purchased skillet patterns or skillets from Griswold, did Sidney purchase other patterns or items from Griswold as well?

If the Sidney skillets are all slightly smaller than ERIE skillets, in my mind I wonder if Sidney used a Griswold ERIE skillet as a master to make their own patterns. If Sidney did that on the skillets, did Sidney use Griswold pieces as masters for other items in their line of Sidney hollow ware?

I'm trying to understand how "close" a relationship existed between Sidney Hollow Ware and Griswold.

[C. Perry Rapier]

Dwayne, the questions you pose are very interesting indeed. I sure would like to find some kind of paper trail between the two companies. The things you ponder are what, or part of that which keeps this interesting.  ;)

[Dwayne Henson]

I wish we had a paper trail. The one discribed in the Red and Blue Books doesn't make sense. In both of those books under The Wagner Manufacturing Company; (page 227 BB, page 7 RB) The Wagner Manufacturing Company bought the Sidney Hollow Ware Company in 1897 from Phillip Smith. In 1903 The Wagner Manufacturing Company sold the Sidney Hollow Ware Company back to Phillip Smith.  Now look at the Sidney dates; RB page 11 and 13. The Sidney marked skillets are dated; "SIDNEY" (arc) 1905-1910, SIDNEY (center) 1910-1929 "SIDNEY" (also came with B) 1920's.
I always thought the SIDNEY marked skillets were made by SHW while under Wagner ownership, but if the dates of the sale of SHW are correct, could Wagner have still been involved? I'm not sure who would have owned SHW in the 1920's as Phillip Smith was born in 1839. Does anyone have any ideas?

Perry, I am suggesting that Sidney Hollow Ware might not have made their own skillet patterns, that they either bought or "borrowed" them from Griswold. See the skillet shown in the BB page 281, look above the W on Hollow, there is another ghostmarked E. We all know that E is the end of ERIE. I am hoping with some measurements we might have a better idea if SHW used Griswold patterns or a Griswold skillet. I wonder if SHW's other items were Griswold designed as well?

[Ed Allspaugh]

Here's the Sid script ghost Erie and Erie comparison. Styling of the skillets are the same. Only difference is the size and markings. The Erie measures 10-3/8” OD and 15-1/4” long including handle.. The Sidney is 10-1/4” OD and 15-1/8”long including handle.  First pic is the Sidney with very light ghost Erie, you can see the quote marks. Other pix are style comparison pix.
  Do have another Sidney with Erie ghost that is the same as the other. Just could not get the ghost to show in the pix, it's hard to see with the naked eye.

  So with all this, I guess plausible that the Sidney was cast using an Erie skillet for a pattern.
 Question: Wouldn't you get the same thing  if a worn Erie pattern was used?

[Chris Stairs]

So with all this, I guess plausible that the Sidney was cast using an Erie skillet for a pattern.
 Question: Wouldn't you get the same thing  if a worn Erie pattern was used?

Ed,
  I can see how the outside surface of a skillet would be slightly smaller as the pattern is worn. What about the inside surface? Would that get bigger, and make the walls thinner? If the inside diameter of the skillet rim is smaller on the Sidney, I don't think wear would explain that.

[Ed Allspaugh]

So with all this, I guess plausible that the Sidney was cast using an Erie skillet for a pattern.
 Question: Wouldn't you get the same thing  if a worn Erie pattern was used?

Ed,
  I can see how the outside surface of a skillet would be slightly smaller as the pattern is worn. What about the inside surface? Would that get bigger, and make the walls thinner? If the inside diameter of the skillet rim is smaller on the Sidney, I don't think wear would explain that.

  Yes, you are right Chris. After I posted and thought about it more I came to the same conclusion.  Thanks for the input..

[Dwayne Henson]

Thank you Ed, I am really suspecting that Griswold items were used for masters to make Sidney skillet patterns, and I know of a Sidney griddle that has a ERIE ghost and is slightly smaller as well. Makes me wonder about all the things that Sidney cast.