Author Topic: GHOST MARKED PUPS (Read 10971 times)

Harry Riva · « **on:** September 26, 2003, 07:01:06 PM »

I was at a friends house looking at his collection a few days ago and he showed me a pup with a very clearly marked small block print "HINES" between the GRISWOLD and the PUP. Nothing unusual there as a lot of us have seen or heard of a dual marked pup. He then proceeded to hand me all of his Griswold 30 Pups and asked me to look really close at the markings on each of them. And every one had a ghost small block print "HINES" mark on them that if you weren't looking for it, you would have missed it. He then told me had talked to another collector and had him check his 30 pups and again, upon close inspection, a ghost mark on every one. As soon as I got home I pulled out my three black pups, gave them the closest going over I ever did, and even with the naked eye I can see the same small block print of the HINES ghost mark.

My question is do all of your 30 pups have these marks?
Look really close in good light. If so, what do you think that tells us? Was there a small block print HINES pup? If so did Griswold get their pattern from a HINES pup? Or did Griswold make small block print pups for HINES? Or if they are all ghost marked does it say that HINES made all of the 30 pups from their pattern and the ghost remains. When I say small block print, it is all caps and about 1/8 high and located about 1/8" under GRISWOLD. Maybe everyone else knew about these ghost marks and I'm just late catching the train. Wouldn't be the first time.
Harry

Greg Stahl · « **Reply #1 on:** September 26, 2003, 08:48:17 PM »

My two have the HINES too!!

Jerry Cermack · « **Reply #2 on:** September 26, 2003, 09:39:47 PM »

I dont have a Griswold Pup to check, but I've always thought Hubely Mfg Co. probably made the Hines pups. I've been asking forever about Hines, and no one seems to know what the Hines name represents?....a business advertisement?....or a foundry?...I know most of the Hines I've seen, in all the variations and styles of printing, have been better quality on the average compared to the Griswold Pups I've seen. Much like most of Hubley's products. I know Hubley created the Fido dog bank and then made paperweight sizes in them. The Fido design was patented in 1914 by Hubley and that has always raised the question of who copied who? For anyone who is not familiar with the Hubley Fido, especially the paperweight size, it is almost a dead ringer for the other pups you see including Griswold. With the exception that it has smooth, not cratered eyes, a horizontal mouth, and a cast tongue. Body and ears are the same.

Harry,
Have you tried to measure a Hines pup versus a Griswold pup?

Harry Riva · « **Reply #3 on:** September 26, 2003, 10:53:12 PM »

Jerry, I haven't tried measuring the two. I'll have to do it when I get back as I am packing now to head north tomorrow. I'll be gone for a week or 2 depending on how everything goes. I hope to get up to N.E. as we have never seen that part of the country.

Jerry, I have a few HINES pups, but I don't have one with markings as small as the ghost markings. Have you seen a HINES in block capital letters 1/8" high? None of my pups have writing that small but I only have 2 or 3. If you don't have one with print that small do you know anyone in the pup collecting circles who does have one. I think that is the pup we need to measure against the Griswold pups, or do you think all Hines pups regardless of logo style are the same size?

Harry

Jerry Cermack · « **Reply #4 on:** September 26, 2003, 11:05:15 PM »

Harry,
I have several Hines and Hines Pup and near as I can measure right now, they all appear to be approx. 1/8" letters. I think there is pictures of about all of the variations on the Pup Link. Do any of those favor the ghost word hines on the griswolds?....Same location as the Hines on link page?

I've never measured all my hines including a brass one, but I will now. I can tell you that the aluminum ones appear to be smaller with the naked eye.

Troy_Hockensmith · « **Reply #5 on:** September 27, 2003, 12:07:53 AM »

I have no pups but do find them interesting. This is a news flash to me and I will definitly be looking a little harder when I do see them. Thanks for bringing this up Harry. Isn't this a cool site!!!!

Harry Riva · « **Reply #6 on:** September 27, 2003, 02:20:58 AM »

Jerry, The HINES print on the first pup, the one with ACCO on the front, seems to be the one if the letters are about 1/8 " high. I think we need to have as many Griswold 30 PUPS looked at as we can by the members who read this and see if any of them do not have the ghost mark. It would be great to see some measurements by someone who knows what they are doing, which excludes me. I made one crude measurement after trying to find a way to measure two pups at the same spot. With the Hines pup facing me I "pulled: it through the jaws of my dial calipers three times with the calipers touching the top of the pups ear and the bottom of the base while holding it as level as I could against the caliper "jaws" and I got a consistent 1.66". I then passed the Griswold pup through the same way and it wouldn't touch both caliper points when set at the 1.66". I could clearly see space between the "jaws" and the top of the 30 pups head. I then pulled the Griswold 30 pup through the jaws, but this time making contact with the top of the pups ear and the base, again as level as I could. Three times and I got the same number of the 1.625 for the Griswold pup. If I extrapolate the difference over 12" I get a difference of 1/4" which is a big difference over a one foot cast. This thing has got me so wrapped up that it's 2:00 in the morning and I still have to pack to leave for a trip at 8:00 in the morning. If there is someone out there who knows how to take a series of valid measurements at the same points I would like to know what they come up with. If my measurements are checked out by someone who knows what they are doing and we find no 30 pups without the ghost HINES then we have Griswold 30 pups with a HINES ghost marks, with a .25" per foot shrinkage when compared to the HINES. Which could be telling us that Griswold pups really may have a little HINES in their lineage? Too many ifs right now and I really don't know. I'm going to bed and packing in the morning.
PS Sitting here at 2:00 with a set of pups, calipers, typing, and not packed. My wife thinks I'm nuts.

John Knapp · « **Reply #7 on:** September 27, 2003, 10:05:51 AM »

My Griswold 30's are both ghosted with Hines, very faint but in the right light I can see the Hines. All of my Hines pups are 1.625" (1 5/8"). I have a few that are a bit smaller 1.518" but they are East Tech pups. I just picked up a variation Hines with the HP entwined on his head. Does anyone else have one like this?
John

Jerry Cermack · « **Reply #8 on:** October 23, 2003, 08:47:15 PM »

Harry,
Here is some measurements on different Hines I have, but as with all cast iron, very difficult to measure with Vernier Calipers. The measurement I took is from the flat bottom to the center on the top of the head. None of the ones I measured have a pronounced seam on top of the head. Too difficult to try measuring to the top of the ear with what I have to measure with. All the aluminum Hines I have are smaller than the cast iron. The Hines Acco and Hines in an oval are both the best quality casting of the ones I have.

Hines in an oval.............................1.595
Hines Pup raised letters..............1.582
Hines Pup incised letters.............1.598
Hines Acco.......................................1.593
Hines Pup incised Brass..............1.575

I dont have a Griswold Pup to compare this too?

I've never heard anyone say that Hines was a foundry? In fact, I've never heard any proof of what the Hines name represents. There is one listed now that the seller claims represents Hines Dog Food.....others suggest it was Duncan Hines Co.? :D :D :D

Dwayne Henson · « **Reply #9 on:** June 16, 2017, 08:46:16 AM »

On ebay

[edit]Admin edit to add larger size original pic - CEW [timestamp=1497634098][/edit]

Dwayne Henson · « **Reply #10 on:** June 16, 2017, 08:51:40 AM »

On ebay.

Dwayne Henson · « **Reply #11 on:** June 16, 2017, 08:54:22 AM »

Joesph Z posted the ebay listing on FB.

Valerie Johnson · « **Reply #12 on:** June 16, 2017, 10:30:36 AM »

Hines made flasks that held molds, they had been in business since 1919, The manufacturing operations of the Hines Flask Company were sold to and moved to the Buckeye Aluminum Foundry in April 2002, Buckey was founded in 1973.

http://www.hinesflask.com/

Tom Neitzel · « **Reply #13 on:** June 16, 2017, 10:31:23 AM »

Thanks for posting Dwayne, and thanks for the eagle eyed eBay viewer, Joseph. These little stickers and bits of paper can go a long way to understanding where things come from.

May or may not be the source, but it is a good candidate.

Here's a cleaned up picture of that label. You can see the remnants of a pup image in the upper right corner.

Tom

Tom Neitzel · « **Reply #14 on:** June 16, 2017, 11:14:10 AM »

Thanks for the link Valerie. You can see a pup image at the upper right of their page.

Decided to include a screen capture of that webpage for a complete package. Look to the left above the photo of Mr. Hines. Click on it to enlarge.

Tom

Dwayne Henson · « **Reply #15 on:** June 16, 2017, 11:50:08 AM »

I'm sure you saw they made flasks in both cast iron and aluminum

Tom Neitzel · « **Reply #16 on:** June 16, 2017, 12:10:13 PM »

Here are a couple pictures of the one on eBay. A small one 12x18x9 inches.

Top and bottom go together, you can see the handles to lift and put the parts together.

The picture with the 2 chrome dowels in the middle show the alignment dowels. They are attached to the bottom. The top fits on them to keep the mold aligned.

The molder would put the sand and pattern in each part, then they would put them together to make the mold contained in the flask for pouring.

Dwayne, I'll bet the molders really appreciated the aluminum ones ;D

Several are on eBay right now if you want one for you own.

Tom

Valerie Johnson · « **Reply #17 on:** June 16, 2017, 01:46:09 PM »

Quote

You can see a pup image at the upper right of their page.

Hi Tom,
Yes I saw that when I posted the link but I forgot to mention it, I wonder if they made the molds Griswold used for the pups, Did Griswold buy the mold from them or did they just use a pup and made their own mold, I imagine there would have been some type of litigation if Griswold just used a pup to make their own mold.

I always found the pups interesting but just never found them interesting enough to plunk down the kind of money they fetch.

Here is a website with some pics of pups.

http://www.griswoldcookware.com/litter_of_pups.htm

Jim Fuchs · « **Reply #18 on:** June 16, 2017, 06:33:58 PM »

WAGS has a really good listing of each known variation of pups under the membership side, second link down (useful links-Foundry List) . Click on Pups, and the entire list is there. :)

Jerry Cermack · « **Reply #19 on:** June 19, 2017, 09:01:22 PM »

I discovered the link to Hines Flask Co. several years ago and their website showing a pup. I posted about it on here and it was discussed. I also tried calling Hines several times in an effort to talk to someone about the pup on their website, but never got to talk to anyone with Hines. I also emailed them several times with no replies.

I was hoping to find out if Hines Flask had some of their foundry customers make advertising pups for them to give away. Which might account the ones with only Hines on them, and also account for the difference in quality in Hines only pups due to maybe letting different Flask Customers make them, or did Hines Flask Co have facilities to make some pups? I was also hoping they could shed some light on the Hines pups with other names on the front like ACCO, etc.

News:

Author Topic: GHOST MARKED PUPS (Read 10971 times)

Troy_Hockensmith